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Constitutional justice!

2K views 25 replies 13 participants last post by  Manic 
#1 ·
The first person in traffic court today, was a bit painfull as he kept trying to re-enforce the fact that his allegation was from July 2001 and was so long ago, etc, etc, etc.

The judge was very patient and explained that in fact 22 months was a long period of time, almost eluded to the fact that he was absoloutly right. Unfortunatly the judge cannot do anything about it. I read a couple of months ago about someone getting their tickets dropped by this. the judge explained that you have to write a letter to the provincial and federal (solicitor general i think). appealing to the "Charter or rights and freedoms" the judge agreed that 22 months was indeed an extended duration of time.

The letter needs to be sent atleast 14 days prior to your hearing date. So if you want to do this course of action, save yourself a step and do the paperwork ahead of time, he is not allowed to pass judgement unless you have put forth a request for him to bring into jurisdiction the charter.

And, by so doing this( I think you are addressing this in Civil court now) you can request the trial be closer to where you might live, as opposed to a having to trip somwhere.

BTW the charter is available and printable on the WWW. I don't think you would even have to address the specifics of the violation, it is simply a question of time.

Hopefully this will buy a new tread for few balding riders!
 
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#3 · (Edited)
It is my belief that a Judge cant over rule any tickets any more. This was due to the wording on the ticket being changed from "prescribed fine" to the wording "ticketed amount" apparently during the photo radar days ICBC/Govt was unhappy with the Judiciary lowering photo radar fines. Because a Judge was able to over rule a "fine" but not a "ticketed amount". You want to hear more horror stories about ICBC/Govt look into the 15% surcharge on tickets. :cool
 
#5 ·
The idea of this is that the 22 months infringes upon your charter right to a speedy trial. 22 months for a traffic ticket to go to court is not a speedy trial.


Fury this province has a lot worse things to worry about than people wasting tax dollars by disputing their tickets in court.
 
#6 ·
Dispute all your tickets...if you don't they will just make you pay over and over...does the term DRIVER POINT PREMIUM mean anything to you?

Being the good citizen that I am, I have only gotten two speeding tickets in the last 15 years, but both of them where within about 2 weeks of each other, so I paid them, $150 each, then about 10 months later I get a bill for another $300 for driver point premiums, because I got more than 4 points in a year...so basically I got to pay for each ticket twice...what a crock of shit...I will dispute every ticket for that I ever get for the rest of life, even if it is for j-walking...
 
#7 ·
Ah, you've got to love our system of Due Process. It doesn't matter whether you committed the act, you just need to find the technicalities to throw at the judges and lo and behold, new case law.....and yes....acquittal.

It's all fun and games until we really need the law to work but unfortunately by then, all those who had abused the system and created a bunch of "bad case laws" have screwed the rest of us. Some food for thought as justice is blind so it won't know whether we've created case law for the betterment of our whole society or just for the betterment of some abuser of the system.

Re this traffic court case, I wonder how many have tried using this....22 months of waiting is an unreasonable delay....and yet they're the ones who probably have asked for previous trial dates to be ajourned for one reason or another.....
 
#8 ·
We're not talking about criminal court here so just relax!

I've had cases take easily over 12months to come to trial without any delays on my part. 22 months is probably possible if the crown delays as well.

At 22 months is SHOULD be thrown out just for causing the defendant worry/grief for that period.

Personally, I fight every traffic violation. So what if it costs extra tax dollars, every minute those buggers are in court and not on the street saves some other poor schmuck a ticket. They waste my time at the side of the road for 1/2 hr so I can waste their time.

BTW, always ask for a new court date about 3 weeks before your hearing date, that way you might get a day where that particular officer is off-duty and you'll get off. It's a 50/50 chance. Worked for me. If you go to your hearing as set by the court they schedule that particular cop that wrote you a ticket and all his other victims the same day.
 
#9 ·
westvan_dude said:
. So what if it costs extra tax dollars, every minute those buggers are in court and not on the street saves some other poor schmuck a ticket. They waste my time at the side of the road for 1/2 hr so I can waste their time.

I can't believe that some of you are so misguided. It's one thing to not want to get any tickets and a completely different thing to want to obstruct the justice system as a whole.
To those who have nothing nice to say about cops, you should spend one shift with a unit and see how things are in the real world. It's a wonder that cops are not more jaded. Believe it or not, cops are held to a higher moral standard then the rest of the people and you just can't stop that when your shift ends.
And no, cops don't need your love and your approval to do what they do. Fortunatelly!
 
#10 ·
Floman:thumbup :thumbup

West Van dude. Believe me , the police don't mind that much for going to court. I would'nt mind it at all. Getting double time, and mileage payment for driving to court in your own personal car on a day off. Yes we do pay for that as well.:thumbup
 
#11 ·
It's just a ticket. The Charter of Rights should not apply to municipal by-laws. You are not be charged with an indictable offence, it's a bloody fine. I believe the purpose for a "speedy" trial is reserved for those incarcerated without bail, though a statute of limitation does apply on all indictable offences.

I don't like the driver point premium either, it's a load of shit, but disputing every ticket ain't gonna change the legislation governing it. Most of us speed without getting caught (I will use speeding for all offences since it's the most common), then when you do get caught that odd time, you (and me) make a big friggin deal about it.

You also have to consider the worth of disputing , I got a bullshit parking ticket for about $40. I applied for a dispute and a court date, well the court dates are all weekday meaning I would have to take a few hours off work. A few hours off work would cost more than the friggin ticket!

All the kings men don't give a shit if you dispute, in fact, the love staying employed. Cops love getting paid to be in court whether you win or lose. So you say keeping cops in court prevent them from handing out more tickets to poor innocent speeders? Are you a moron! My tax dollars should be working at catching bike thieves and harassing other low lives rather than going to court over a traffic fine.

The system is bullshit anyway you slice it. If you don't like it, change it. Find you local MLA and make an effort to change the system, make those guys work for your vote. If you don't want the hassle of tickets, fines, premiums... don't get caught speeding.
 
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#13 ·
Amen Fury.

It's funny how people get so upset at the cops for pulling them over for speeding and wasting a half hour of their time. I mean, it's one thing if it's a B.S. ticket. But seriously, if you were caught speeding, suck it up and pay your fine. You chose to speed. Choosing to speed means you are accepting the risk of your life, others lives, and the chance of getting caught.

I can't stand it when people are total babies about getting caught.

Sorry for the rant that probably makes no sense. I haven't had my coffee yet :(
 
#15 ·
The Officer had a folder thick with about 30 or more people and their corresponding traffic violations, the court listing was quite long. The 4 of us that actually showed up to dispute compared to the 25 others, that "noshowed", i bet the officers and judge don't give 2 shits, and probobly take kindly and recognize the fact that you are here on your own time standing up for yourself, and like to give you a break.
The whole process is payed by you, supported by you and your right, it is what makes up the country we live in, I don't have a problem in using tools that i support to help standup for my rights, regardless of the offence, it is about LAW, and we are innocent untill proven guilty!
 
#16 ·
Fury said:
It's just a ticket. The Charter of Rights should not apply to municipal by-laws.
Whoa! Think about that for a minute. No Charter, eh? Like
muni forces don't have a few yahoos on them that need to be
kept reminded that they're here to serve and protect, not power-trip??

I dispute my tickets for the simple reasons that a) I don't agree with the law behind them
(like for splitting between cars at a traffic light) and b) I think that the place of the judiciary is to keep the police
honest. I had a few tickets that fall under the boundary of
"harassment" thrown out by judges, and rightfully so.

I haven't had a ticket take longer than a year yet, but if it does
you can make sure that I'll protest that too. The BC Courts have
already complained that the provincial govt. is hamstringing their
ability to do justice in a timely manner. If no one uses the defence,
then it never becomes an issue, and nothing changes.

I'm not wasting anyone's time with that. And the law and Charter
are for everyone, not just for the RCMP. Especially not just for the
RCMP.
 
#17 ·
Everyone is presumed innocent until proven guilty. Taken to the nth degree, we can really bog down the system.

Let's try a different approach. How many here play team sports. Let's say hockey....we all know the rules....break them and there's a penalty. Well, we all know the rules for driving. Yet we break them and then claim that we don't need to abide by them just because it doesn't suit our needs. Well, you probably wouldn't be doing that if you were playing any sports because if you did that, you'd be kicked off the team. Well then, driving is a priviledge and not a right so what's the difference?

Food for thought eh.

p.s. for those that like to change the schedule a few weeks before hand, you may actually be making the officer some extra cash because the original date is usually set on the officer's working day, when you change it at the last moment and pick the date and it happens to fall on a day off, believe me, that'll be an extra couple of hundred bucks of overtime.
 
#18 ·
Commuter boy, good point. The judge when into details about how we have this system inplace for people to exercise their rights. Can you imagine a world ran with an iron fist? watch CNN and see how free we are in our society.
What if what the police man said was accepted without question, given humen nature we probobly wouldn'e even be allowed to ride race bikes on the road, as the powers that be would impose their way, regardles.

Basically the judged sumed up that we have two credible witneses who are diametrically opposed. regardless of he's a police officer, and i am a civilian. What are the facts and what is lawful rationale for this dispute
In blackjack, the tie goes to the dealer, in court, the tie goes to the civilian? sounds fair to me! No?!
 
#19 ·
Good example FZ1.

Treeman and Commuter Boy:

I don't agree with many of our Canadian laws, but breaking them and disputing them at our expense won't change a thing. If it was a frivolous charge, good on ya :thumbup We live in a democratic society were laws are made and passed to serve the best interest of the public. Like I said before, you as a voter have the power to change or create laws as you see fit. This is why there are groups like BCCOM who do a great deal for the motorcycling community. The most recent example I can think of was when they got us the right to use the HOV lanes.

Fury said:
Are you a moron!
treeman said:
watch CNN and see how free we are in our society.
I guess that answers my question. :laughing
But answer this, were you speeding?

RANT:
If you ask me, the Charter, albiet it's good intentions, is cow poo.
How many murders and dirt bags have gotten away with crimes b/c of Constitutional laws. I really don't think this country needs such a powerful piece of legislation. Our so called freedom in North America is just an illusion, the real freedom is money. You can be the biggest crook, but if you are rich, you can afford the best lawyers money can buy with, your proceeds of crime of course. I would love nothing more than to see the Charter and some other laws abolished, then walk in to Clifford Olsen's fully furnished cell and beat the living shit out of him.
 
#20 ·
Fury said:
RANT:
If you ask me, the Charter, albiet it's good intentions, is cow poo.
How many murders and dirt bags have gotten away with crimes b/c of Constitutional laws. I really don't think this country needs such a powerful piece of legislation. Our so called freedom in North America is just an illusion, the real freedom is money. You can be the biggest crook, but if you are rich, you can afford the best lawyers money can buy with, your proceeds of crime of course. I would love nothing more than to see the Charter and some other laws abolished, then walk in to Clifford Olsen's fully furnished cell and beat the living shit out of him.
If it bothers you so much, please take advantage of our wonderful emmigration program to get yourself out of our horrible country. Perhaps you'd like to spend some time in a country where you don't have any rights. Please let us know when you're falsely accused of something and have no way of defending yourself so we can laugh at you.
 
#22 ·
Fury said:
I don't agree with many of our Canadian laws, but breaking them and disputing them at our expense won't change a thing. If it was a frivolous charge, good on ya :thumbup We live in a democratic society were laws are made and passed to serve the best interest of the public. Like I said before, you as a voter have the power to change or create laws as you see fit. This is why there are groups like BCCOM who do a great deal for the motorcycling community. The most recent example I can think of was when they got us the right to use the HOV lanes.
That's one way. Civil disobedience is another. They both have a place (and aren't mutually exclusive).
 
#23 · (Edited)
Boone said:
If it bothers you so much, please take advantage of our wonderful emmigration program to get yourself out of our horrible country. Perhaps you'd like to spend some time in a country where you don't have any rights. Please let us know when you're falsely accused of something and have no way of defending yourself so we can laugh at you.
Canada has an Emmigration program? I thought I was free to leave when ever I want.

I think you are missing my point. Canada is good place to live (if you can afford democracy) I am all for letting 10 potetial guilty go free over wrongfully imprisoning 1, that is the whole idea of our Justice system, non? The Charter with all it's good intentions has also created many hurdles for the police and the courts.

We never had a Charter prior to 1982, did you think we needed one? Do you think Canada would turn into a dictatorship if these laws weren't in place? Gimme a break!

So you tell me Boone, a guy slaughters your family, the cops (as incompetent as they may be) catch him red handed, throw him in the slammer and give him some moral beatings for good measure, get so enraged by this haenous act they forget to read him the Charter. His lawyer challenges that the client was not read his constitutional rights, blah blah blah, the case get thrown out. Will you still be laughing?

You think Nicole Brown Simpson's family is happy that the law doesn't allow for him to be tried him again?
 
#24 ·
Boone, you've made an excellent point. If you're falsely accused of something you didn't do, it's great that the Charter of Rights is there to protect you. We are not disputing that. It's the abuse of the system that many are not happy with.

In the framework of this forum, we see so often people bragging about getting off on tickets because they use the system. Maybe the cop won't show....maybe the cop forgets to mention the speed limit for the zone...all technicalities. However, none of these have anything to do with the reality of whether the person committed the act or not.

When we complain about bike thieves and how they just go through the revolving doors of justice...think about it for a moment. These thieves didn't get to the stage where they're at simply by waking up one day. They've learned to abuse the system for their own benefit. Guess what everytime they get busted, if they can't afford their own lawyer, Legal Aid steps in at our expense. Then the lawyer finds some technicality to go after because hey, Mr. Citizen violated his client's rights ....so what if Mr. Citizen caught the thief red handed. That is irrelevant. As long as some loophole or technicality is played up, then bingo, guy gets off free as a bird.

So, on the one hand we may think it's really funny that we beat the system and get off, well, that very mentality helps create the criminals that do all those bad things in society and we scream and rant about those. Well, as the saying goes, you can't have your cake and eat it too.
 
#25 ·
The government is the monopolitic (not sure if its a word) (monopoly, and political) power that can at anytime do what it feels, by following the law, everything that is applicable to us as well. The general public (aka sheep flock) generally don't know their rights. Untill your rights have been infringed and you are suffering do you investigate and do something. Thats where the power is, in the people. It is not a question of guilty, or innocent, it is what the application of Law is in the given circumstances.

All the whinning must be coming from people who haven't had to stand their ground on anything. or have had to pay those tickets that they really didn't feel were justified.

Off on a technicality??? oh we forgot to tighten your new sprocket, it seized and you caused a major accident, who would be responcible? if this was the case i am pretty sure it isn't you to blame, or is it? i am pretty sure that the mechanic, albeit the shop that would ultimatly be responcible, wouldn't you want to defend your position of "just riding along!" ?
 
#26 ·
fz1 said:
...Then the lawyer finds some technicality to go after because hey, Mr. Citizen violated his client's rights ....so what if Mr. Citizen caught the thief red handed. That is irrelevant. As long as some loophole or technicality is played up, then bingo, guy gets off free as a bird.
...
You're right. We should never let it get this far. Next time you catch a thief red-handed just go ahead and blow his brains out right there on the spot. And then take one for the team. Sure you'll go to jail but you'll be doing all the rest of us a huge favor in getting the scumbag off the street forever. The good of the many outweighs the good of the few (or one - ie. YOU).

And who knows, maybe your lawyer will find a loophole for you and you'll be acquitted.

I guess a nice compromise is what happened with that north shore scumbag. His name, address, phone #s were made public and then he was handed over to the law. If he gets off on a technicality.......................
 
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