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heads up on ICBC and ticket costs

2K views 19 replies 9 participants last post by  blade929boy 
G
#1 ·
heads up from Smythe77 at sportbikes.net

http://www.sportbikes.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=954708#post954708

If you don't have an account, here is the text)

Looks like the Govt if at any of us that move a bit fast.
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STORY
Speeders targeted for bigger penalties
Excessive speeders face double demerit points

Jeremy Sandler [Sound Off]
Vancouver Sun

Saturday, June 22, 2002
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The B.C. government is getting set to increase fines and double the number of demerit points issued for traffic offences such as excessive speeding.

Solicitor-General Rich Coleman confirmed Friday the Liberal cabinet is looking at a dramatic hike in the penalties applied to those convicted of driving more than 40 km/h over posted limits.

Fines for excessive speeding are currently anywhere from $345 to $460, plus three demerit points. Coleman said the government is proposing to double the number of demerit points handed out, but cabinet has not yet decided on how big the fine increases should be.

The hike in demerit points will mean drivers will automatically have to pay a demerit premium levied by ICBC of at least $300, in addition to their ticket costs.

No premium is currently levied against drivers with three or fewer demerit points, but under the new system, just one excessive speeding conviction would mean six points and a $300 bill.

Coleman said the initiative is aimed at making roads safer.

"Excessive speed at the top levels is one of the biggest contributors to serious and fatal motor vehicle accidents," he said.

Coleman said the move is not a cash grab on the part of the government.

"This is not a significant impact on revenues. This is an impact on certain people going at a certain speed that they are putting their lives and others in danger," he said.

Coleman added that the fine increase would not apply to other offences, such as speeders going less than 40 km/h over posted limits. The fines for speeding that is not deemed "excessive" currently range from $115 to $230, plus three demerit points.

"None of the other categories would change," Coleman said.

But Michael Cain, research director for Safety by Education Not Speed Enforcement (SENSE), a lobby group that originally fought the use of photo radar in B.C., said the government needs to look at increasing speed limits on some roads before it hikes fines for excessive speeding.

"What they're trying to do is fight street racing," Cain said. "These increased fines are not going to represent a deterrent to wealthy street racers, but they are going to be an exceedingly high fine on some drivers who are caught ... where speed limits are posted too low."

Cain said the B.C. government should have to prove the reasonableness of posted speed limits, as is done in some U.S. jurisdictions. If a speed limit cannot be shown as reasonable, drivers exceeding it may not be ticketed.

Cain also said demerit points should be issued on a sliding scale, so that one or two lesser speeding offences would not result in whopping demerit charges.

"What the government should be doing is making the lowest level of speeding, which is zero to 20 [km/h over the limit], a two-point offence, leaving the 20-40 as three points, and 40-60 would be four points and 60-over would be five points," he said. "That would then be a graduated points system."

Inspector Don Saigle, the officer in charge of traffic services for the RCMP in B.C., said police forces around the province have been contacted about the government's plan. He thinks the government's initiative is a good one.

"I think this is one of the administrative sanctions that can be imposed to assist the driving public in recognizing the inappropriateness of that type of behaviour," he said. "If people violate their privilege of operating a vehicle, then there needs to be an expectation that there is some punitive action that will follow as a result."

University of Ottawa criminology professor Julian Roberts, an expert on sentencing issues, expects the plan will reduce the total amount of excessive speeding.

"People are fairly sensitive to the penalty for driving offences," he said. "So I would say increasing the penalty, increasing the fine, would have a deterrent effect."

But Roberts added convincing people they're going to get caught is equally important to the stiffness of the penalty in modifying behaviour.

"The fine for jumping a red light could be $10,000, but it's not going to deter people if they don't think they're gong to get caught," he said. "You need to have a stiff fine and you need to convince people that ... there is a reasonable probability of being caught."

DRIVERS' FINES AND DEMERITS

Each traffic offence committed by B.C. drivers calls for certain fines and demerit points. Below are selected Motor Vehicle Act offences, listed with their related fines and driver penalty points.

Every B.C. driver who accumulates four or more driver penalty points must pay a driver penalty premium in order to renew his or here licence. The money goes to ICBC, which uses it to reduce premium costs for drivers. The more points a driver accumulates, the more it costs to renew a licence.

Driver penalty point (DPP) premium chart

Driver Point

Penalty Premium $

0-3 Nil

4 $175

5 $230

6 $300

7 $415

8 $520

9 $640

10 $905

20 $3,760

30 $8,160

40 $14,560

50 or more $24,000

Offense

Drive contrary to restriction (e.g., not wearing corrective lenses)

Fine $86

Points 3

Fail to produce driver's licence or insurance

Fine $58

Points 0

Fail to yield to pedestrian

Fine $144

Points 2

Drive without due care

Fine $345

Points 6

Speed in school zone

Fine $173-230

Points 3

Fail to stop for school bus

Fine $144

Points 3

Change lanes without signal

Fine $86

Points 2

Disobey stop sign

Fine $144

Points 3

U-turn - intersection

Fine $144

Points 2

Pass on right

Fine $86

Points 2
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G
#2 ·
Gee-zus!

Just revealing my hooliganism here, I guess.

But i regularly cruise down hwy 1 or the barnett with spurts up to 130-150 k.

I figure its just a matter of time 'fore i get burned.

But this doubling the fines thing SUX!

Why the KJJ(#)L!K@J should I pull over if a cop puts on his lights? For 6 demerit points and $1000+ (effectively) fine, I figure I'll just make a bloody run for it...



of course, i'm probably full of shit (apart from speeding on hwys, i tend to be ultra honest and lawabiding).

can't win.:mad
 
G
#3 ·
heh,does anybody know where we can write in to a politician that can do something about this.with the "streetbikers" i hang out with this news is getting people to wondering if running is worth it with these exesive fines.these are paople who would never have considered it before.coleman is trying to curb "streetracing" and the deaths they cause,but if a lot of people start running because they will not change their riding and do not want these fines that only the "well off" can afford,then i think that bad accidents and deaths could go up.people that would not have gotten in accidents crashing out because they can't afford the fine the flashing cherries bring.they need to sit back and take a better look at this before making a hasty decision.some of these 16 year(sorry to stereotype)sports car drivers are taking out others with them,but in general bike guys only take out themselves.i know that there won't be a double standard for bikes,i just see this causing more problems than good.
sorry about the long rant,just my .02$
 
#4 ·
Gees, when I am going to school on the 91, I usually cruise at around 170 when there is little traffic. But one ticket, under the new proposed rules, would empty most of my savings. And they have the nerve to say it is not just a cash grab. :(
 
#7 ·
OMG... f@cking bullshit!! Tickets are ok.. but the point thing is a killer!! over 9 points and your license will be suspended too!! If they are so desperate for money, why not stop those bike thieves first?
 
#9 ·
You guys are all forgetting one basic little fact here. We ARE breaking the law when we ride like we do. Period, end of story. Call it a cash grab if you want but the simple fact is that is that if we did the speed limit by choice this would not be an issue.

So you see for the average Ma and Pa Kettle that owns a Ford Tempo and gets worried when their speedo shows 52 kph in a 50 zone we are not going to get any sympathy. Unfortunetley there are a LOT more of them then of us.

Never mind that we have a bunch of politicians that are politically desparate to cut down on the streetracing death stories in the news. Each one is a bloodletting blow to their re-election chances.

Cash grab? Well, at first it seems like it but remember that suspensions and cash penalties are ALL the law has to work with. Unfortuneltley they are trying to target the rich kids' parents in the hope that they will quell the street racing. But as a side effect they are really going to hurt the less flush segment. But you gotta see that they are stuck. Make the penalties too low and they have no effect. Make them too high and sure it makes the rest of us scream but they don't really care as long as the headlines don't have stories about street speed accidents.

As I see it there are 3 things we can do to battle this....... well OK there are 4 things, but I don't think yelling "FUCK THIS" on this forum is doing much good.... :D And will you guys PLEASE check your spelling? It's FUCK, not fock, f#&K, or whatever other colorful place holder you choose.... Or maybe just hold off with the bad invectives in the first place. Perhaps you could offer some reasoned logic or just a basic primal scream instead.....

First of all join BCCOM. I know they are largely an older cruiser based group but they ARE the only motorcycle oriented lobby group in BC. They've been effective in the past and with some support can be effective in the future. Sportbikes are the most persecuted motorcycle group around today. A political voice can't hurt. That bit about these new penalties promoting more runners is VERY VALID. I'd hate to see the increased death and injury toll that will result. I think BCCOM is the group to address these issues within the system. And a stronger sportbike group within BCCOM will assure that we are heard.

Second, learn some discretion and self control. Yes we have bikes that can decimate the speed limits without even breaking a fingernail but that doesn't mean you MUST use it that way all the time. Pick your time and place. Radar alleys like the Maryhill bypass or No. 1 during rush hour or No7 between Pitt Meadows and Maple Ridge are just asking for trouble. Get a speeding ticket on one of these and don't bother coming to cry on my shoulder. Like it or not the roads are NOT our private race track. We gotta learn to be sneaky about it. And PLEASE, if you DO decide to run for it have a plan and a place. Trying to run in an area you don't know or that has no place to hide is just stupid. If you can't be hidden inside of 30 seconds and without excessive speeding then it's just NOT going to work and you're way more likely to wind up wrapped around a light pole or with a MUCH bigger penalty. I know no one wants to see their license gone but a suspension is temporary and expensive while death or severe disability is sorta permanent. Please don't make the rest of us read about the latter.......

And finally why not take it to a track? Yes I know it's a pain to schlep your bike down to one of the big tracks or do the mods so you can run on the local Mission track but once you get some track time you'll realize just how artificial a world the street scene really is. You think you're pushing the limits now? Buddy, you have NO idea of what the limits really are until you are down and touching your footpeg for corner after corner and lap after lap. Even if you only got a couple of track days a season I think you'll find that the street just doesn't have the same "push the limitz" appeal any more. Guys like SMZ have seen the light. He, and others that I can't remember just now, don't even have a bike with a plate on it anymore. It's a track only sport for them because it's just more satisfying. Certainly a couple of track days has blunted my desire to rocket all over the place. I still enjoy the quick squirt around a nice corner but I notice that my desire to rocket down the open road just isn't as great. And truth be known it's just fine that way becuase I know another track fix is just a few weeks away.

Damn, I hope all this doesn't sound like something your folks would say........ :D
 
#10 ·
i believe to be a sucessful parent, you are suppost to value your punishments. this leads to excessive punishment. when excessive punishment is used, i believe one's child will not fallow and will lead to lost of support and anger against you will become.
i beleve government is kinda like a parents like figure, and citizens are like kids, regard less of who is going to speed, sometime somewhere and someone will speed, so it brings down to who will actually stop. i see if the government is tying to stop speeders, intead of takeing all this money into their pockets, they should use it to built a public race track where all speeders feel supported so they feel less need to speed on streets. like you said. after taking it on track, it feel artificial. perhaps everyone should be supported to try a track at least ones. I strongly sugest a bigger and better race track built by governmetn, think of it as a comunity center for kids. the purpose for a comunity center is so the kids have a place to go and hang out with big brothers with knowledge of their activities. respect
 
#11 ·
What you say makes lots of sense. However my gripe is the hypocricy of the way the government is dealing with the issue. They say they care about accidents and not the money. Yet when approached about promoting a local track, curves and drag, they say that does not fit their agenda. What a hypocritical pile of crap!! And I voted for Rich, I was even invited to his celebration BBQ. Now I feel like I helped support some kind of traffic Nazi.

Many young people and old people that are still young at heart know what it is like to race, accelerate, and generally feel the power of something they worked on and built. The need for excitement through adrenaline is good in my opinion. It beats doing drugs or some other stupid activity. I see nothing wrong with rocketing around at 200mph or grinding pegs on corners (I just wish I could grind pegs with more confidence, but that is another issue). The problem is when and where, which was stated above. If the government/municipalities/ICBC would cooperate I see no reason why a local track could not be made in an easy to access location with flexible hours that would allow people to drop in and get their "who's fastest" issues dealt with or just the next adrenaline fix. But Rich's crew seems to think that providing a better venue for racing is not cool. Packing up your bike and cruising down to Washington is not practical on a regular basis. Many people have lives other than saving money for the next fix down south. Most people are not willing to wait 3-4 weeks or longer to ride. It needs to be closer with more frequent times to be effective.

So once again instead of the government doing something that could turn a problem into a benefit to the province they sink to the low ground and just try more pathetic strong arm tactics.

This next comment may be reaching a little but for sake of debate ....
"If smokers have the right to kill themselves slowly and use up my taxes to take care of them in the hospitals, then why as a biker can I not have the right to rocket down the highway when no one is on it, or some back road when no one is there? I know it isn't practical but it still ticks me off.
 
#12 ·
Yes the government is hypocritical in this area. No question there. We are all supposed to just fit into our little socially acceptable pigeon holes.

But the general public doesn't help one bit. Look as all the negative press and protests about the Indy. The government just follows that lead.

The Merrit Mountain Speedway is rife with rumors and storys. I've heard that the provincial government demanded that the track not use local roads for access out of Merrit but rather pay for an INTERCHANGE of the main highway. That's something like a cool $800,000 or so I understand from the story. If this is accurate then it's no wonder that the developer is looking at condo's as an alternate.

We need a champion or two to organize the cars and bikes in the provice and show the government that it's NOT just a few bad apples.

Motorsport is a valid sport and deserves to be recognized in this province. I'd like to see a half dozen drag race and autocross facilities in the lower mainland for week night fun runs and weekend autocross action. In addition there should be a decent sized motorsport facility up the valley around Abottsford or Chilliwack. Something way out in the middle of nowhere so the condo's wouldn't come calling anytime soon. This would be a 2.5 or so kim track that could be split for smaller club events or joined up for pro events. In addition there would be a motocross track and a large open paved area for club level autocross or race course training.

If we had these sorts of facilites where the moto heads could blow off some steam under controlled circumstances THEN the government could rightfully up the fines and penalties and we wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

Ah........ but this is all just a dream.......But I retire in 6 years..... If I'm still enthused perhaps I'll have a mission for my retirement.
 
#13 ·
I agree 100%, I just wish the public would.

It is like the skateboard analogy, everyone hated boarders in the parking lots, someone with a brain decided to move the venue to a park, Whamo, no more problem (at least it is reduced considerably). I don't see why this isn't any different.

Email rich.coleman.mla@leg.bc.ca Rich Coleman as much as possible, here is what I sent in, you can add your name and use the same thing or perhaps we can come up with a better letter. But if everyone emailed daily with the same subject line, it may actually get someones attention and it isn't hard to email.

********************************
Subject: A Real Solution to the Street Racing Problem


I have been listening to the TV coverage on Street Racing and the new law proposals to reduce the problem. However with the knowledge I have of street racing from speaking to people I doubt that the current tactics will have the effect that is desired.

The bottom line is that many kids/adults desire the excitement and challenge of working on and racing cars/bikes. Personally I think working on cars is a constructive hobby and is much more positive than hanging around in packs at the local corner store or bar etc. I believe the challenge should be containing the racing to an appropriate time and place not trying to stop it. A simple analogy is the problem that people were having with skateboarders, everyone was complaining about skateboarders using parking lots and shopping malls etc. for their sport. You could fine and take boards away all day long and it wouldn't solve the problem, the final solution was to realize it was a reasonable activity but just in the wrong area. Skateboard parks have solved the problems in most municipalities and the issue has essentially gone away.
I would propose doing the exact same thing with Street Racing. Instead of taking away licenses and imposing huge fines, we should solve the problem and create a centralized drag/flyer strip. I realize we already have a drag strip in Mission, however that is much too far for teens to travel and the drop-in times are very sporadic. For this solution to work it must be readily available and central to the larger populations.
- It should be available for drop-ins on a minimum of Friday night, Sat and Sun.
- A minimal fee could easily be charged to help fund the site.
- A relatively straight forward license could be made available to insure that drivers/riders were educated and prepared for racing, this could be accompanied by some training for a fee.
- Fast food could be made available to people to help raise support money.
- spectators could be charged a minimal fee $2 to watch.

From my conversations with people I feel very confident that there would be enough local law enforcement, ambulance attendance, nurses that would be willing to volunteer on a rotating basis to supervise the weekends events to insure a safe environment.
I am sure that ICBC would be willing to offer financial support to get kids off the streets, this works in their best interest for financial reasons as well as ethical.
If the surrounding Municipalities contributed along with Provincial government support I am sure we could acquire the 1/2 - 1 mile narrow strip of land that would be required to setup a drag racing or top speed flyer run. (top speed flyer runs in the UK, USA etc. are typically 1 mile long and have a marked break point at 3/4 of a mile for slowing down. 1 mile is typically not enough to reach top speed but it is distance that is typically used for "flyer" runs to test out the upper speed limits in a limited range. Vehicles are typically setup for one or the other event.

The only opposition besides financial reasons would be noise pollution in nearby areas. Street cars typically have greatly reduced exhaust systems and would not run the same noise levels, but depending on the expansion plans non-street approved cars could migrate to the track. I believe that a location on Annasis Island would be the most logical location for the track for 2 reasons. The first would be that it is central enough to provide easy access to kids/adults that would want to race. Second is that it provides a number of areas that would not impact on residential noise levels.

I have spoken with a handful of local teens about the idea and it has had unanimous support. As long as the goal to provide drop in racing for Fri - Sun and possibly on stat holidays is maintained at a cost effective level I believe it would be a win-win for all parties involved. It would also provide an opportunity for the local police to participate with their vehicles as challenges. There could be a "Challenge the Cops" night. (excuse the "Cops" phrase, but it would go over better to use the words that the kids use).

I realize that this proposal would involve Municipalities, Provincial Government, local Police, Ambulance and Hospitals but I believe it would be a solid pro-active solution to the problem that provides what I believe to be a positive activity for kids.



Please forward this to any and all appropriate individuals that you believe would help make this proposal a reality.



Thank you very much for your time,


Your real name


********************************
 
#14 ·
That's a nice letter. Um, I don't follow my politics as much as perhaps I should and I suspect there's a bunch out there that are the same. So just who is Rich Coleman when he's at work?
 
#15 ·
Honestly this is getting to be too much.

My grandfather was a cop,and he cannot belive how cowardly and inconsiderate they have become. I grew up in a police state (saudi arabia) and I tell you that the cops there are more polite and reasonable than the cops here.

This is what I am doing.
1. I am ALWAYS going to mount my detector.
2. I am ordering a Laser-jamming system. (legal)
3. I will be heading down to the cop shops on the north shore and recording the plate numbers of all the ghost cars. With fines now higher than my tuition was last term I can afford to spend some time studying them.

The next step is full on teamwork.
-We all buy VHF radios and adopt a total siege mentality including sending scouts ahead of the main pack and positioning spotters at known speed trap locations.
 
#16 ·
Sandworm,

I like the teamwork aspect you mentioned, and your studying of ghost cars would be beneficial on a webpage. Perhaps a webpage like this one? It could be labeled "Piggies" and have a picture and license plate number of all the different ghost cars in the lower mainland (or in all of BC). Everyone would have the opportunity to capture an image of the car and it's plate number and make it an addition to the "Piggies" section of bcsportbikes.com. Not only that but there could be a map to zoom-in&out on for known trap locations far & wide. Or it that getting to be too much?

I'm really trying to slow down in preparation for my upcoming track time at MRP (Mission). Also becuase one more ticket and I could most likely loose my license.

I'm starting to think Mission Raceway Park needs a big upgrade, it could be the venue us speed addicts need. If there were a group similar to TBCindoor or PerformanceDriversClub.org out in Mission, we could be racing every other weekend.
 
#17 ·
F4eyes said:
Sandworm,

I like the teamwork aspect you mentioned, and your studying of ghost cars would be beneficial on a webpage. Perhaps a webpage like this one? It could be labeled "Piggies" and have a picture and license plate number of all the different ghost cars in the lower mainland (or in all of BC). Everyone would have the opportunity to capture an image of the car and it's plate number and make it an addition to the "Piggies" section of bcsportbikes.com. Not only that but there could be a map to zoom-in&out on for known trap locations far & wide. Or it that getting to be too much?

I'm really trying to slow down in preparation for my upcoming track time at MRP (Mission). Also becuase one more ticket and I could most likely loose my license.

I'm starting to think Mission Raceway Park needs a big upgrade, it could be the venue us speed addicts need. If there were a group similar to TBCindoor or PerformanceDriversClub.org out in Mission, we could be racing every other weekend.

While I think it's a good idea to have a website like that (I like the name also, the po-po can have my respect once they earn it) I belive its a completly BAd idea to have it tied in with bcsb. This website is about promoting safe and responsible riding. The last thing we need is the police scanning our rides forum and harrassing us during big sportbike meets. This happens in the states on a regular basis.


oh, and "Fuck This" !! :rider
 
#18 ·
BMatthews said:
That's a nice letter. Um, I don't follow my politics as much as perhaps I should and I suspect there's a bunch out there that are the same. So just who is Rich Coleman when he's at work?
Good question, I should have added some detail.

Rich Coleman is the MP for Langley for the BC Liberals, once elected (this term) he became BC's Attorney General. That means he makes the laws essentially (if I understand it right).
 
#19 ·
I am one of the 'slowest' riders I know, but I also ride more than almost anyone I know. I also get stopped at least once a week by some meathead pig. I will not get into the list of idiotic reasons cops have for stopping bikes, ill save that for my funny stories thread.

Our bigest ally in this fight is the the regular cop. The RCMP are loosing officers faster than they can keep them. Moral is at an all-time low and many cops are questioning thier place in society. If we want things changed we should remind officers of exactly how much we normal people hate them and what they are doing. They will shrug off 'street racers' who publish websites of cop licence plates. They will not ignore reguar every day people telling them that they are the scum.
 
G
#20 ·
thanks for the info guys,i will try to contact the lobby group and will begin to systematically pepper mr. colemans' e-mail account with my views.i will keep it classy as he won't even read hate mail,but i will make a point.honestly i believe the new legislation will cause more accidents then they save.on another note this is all a political agenda.if they were worried about deaths,they would clamp down on people that run stop signs and red lights.or perhaps going after the drunk drivers.the newspapers make headlines of streetracers and the politicians agendas change.
 
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