Christian? read this...
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  1. #1
    Registered User Array savagebovine's Avatar
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    Christian? read this...

    Copy and Paste from Ken Miller's site:

    The great hall of the Hynes Convention Center in Boston looks nothing like a church. And yet I sat there, smiling amid an audience of scientists, shaking my head and laughing to myself as I remembered another talk, given long ago, inside a church to an audience of children.

    Without warning, I had experienced one of those moments in the present that connects with the scattered recollections of our past. Psychologists tell us that things happen all the time. Five thousand days of childhood are filed, not in chronological order, but as bits and pieces linked by words, or sounds, or even smells that cause us to retrieve them for no apparent reason when something "refreshes" our memory. And just like that, a few words in a symposium on developmental biology had brought me back to the day before my first communion. I was eight years old, sitting with the boys on the right side of our little church (the girls sat on the left), and our pastor was speaking.

    Putting the finishing touches on a year of preparation for the sacrament, Father Murphy sought to impress us with the reality of God's power in the world. He pointed to the altar railing, its polished marble gleaming in sunlight, and firmly assured us that God himself had fashioned it. "Yeah, right," whispered the kid next to me. Worried that there might be the son or daughter of a stonecutter in the crowd, the good Father retreated a bit. "Now, he didn't carve the railing or bring it here or cement it in place. . . but God himself made the marble, long ago, and left it for someone to find and make into part of our church."

    I don't know if our pastor sensed that his description of God as craftsman was meeting a certain tide of skepticism, but no matter. He had another trick up his sleeve, a can't-miss, sure-thing argument that, no doubt, had never failed him. He walked over to the altar and picked a flower from the vase.

    "Look at the beauty of a flower," he began. "The Bible tells us that even Solomon in all his glory was never arrayed as one of these. And do you know what? Not a single person in the world can tell us what makes a flower bloom. All those scientists in their laboratories, the ones who can split the atom and build jet planes and televisions, well, not one of them can tell you how a plant makes flowers." And why should they be able to? "Flowers, just like you, are the work of God."

    I was impressed. No one argued, no one wisecracked. We filed out of the church like good little boys and girls, ready for our first communion the next day. And I never thought of it again, until this symposium on developmental biology. Sandwiched between two speakers working on more fashionable topics in animal development was Elliot M. Meyerowitz, a plant scientist at Caltech. A few of my colleagues, uninterested in research dealing with plants, got up to stretch their legs before the final talk, but I sat there with an ear-to-ear grin on my face. I jotted notes furiously; I sketched the diagrams he projected on the screen and wrote additional speculations of my own in the margins. Meyerowitz, you see, had explained how plants make flowers.

    The four principal parts of a flower - sepals, petals, stamens, and pistils - are actually modified leaves. This is one of the reasons why plants can produce reproductive cells just about anywhere, while animals are limited to a very specific set of reproductive organs. Your little finger isn't going to start shedding reproductive cells anytime soon. But in springtime, the tip of any branch on an apple tree may very well blossom and begin scattering pollen. Plants can produce new flowers anywhere they can grow new leaves. Somehow, however, the plant must find a way to "tell" an ordinary cluster of leaves that they should develop into floral parts. That's where Meyerowitz's lab took over.

    Several years of patient genetic study had isolated a set of mutants that could only form two or three of the four parts. By crossing the various mutants, his team was able to identify four genes that had to be turned on or off in a specific pattern to produce a normal flower. Each of these genes, in turn, sets off a series of signals that "tell" the cells of a brand new bud to develop as sepals or petals rather than ordinary leaves. The details are remarkable, and the interactions between the genes are fascinating. To me, sitting in the crowd thirty-seven years after my first communion, the scientific details were just the icing on the cake. The real message was "Father Murphy, you were wrong." God doesn't make a flower. The floral induction genes do.

    Our pastor's error, common and widely repeated, was to seek God in what science has not yet explained. His assumption was that God is best found in territory unknown, in the corners of darkness that have not yet seen the light of understanding. These, as it turns out, are exactly the wrong places to look.

    Searching the Shadows

    By pointing to the process of making a flower as proof of the reality of God, Father Murphy was embracing the idea that God finds it necessary to cripple nature. In his view, the blooming of a daffodil requires not a self-sufficient material universe, but direct intervention by God. We can find God, therefore, in the things around us that lack material, scientific explanations. In nature, elusive and unexplored, we will find the Creator at work.

    The creationist opponents of evolution make similar arguments. They claim that the existence of life, the appearance of new species, and, most especially, the origins of mankind have not and cannot be explained by evolution or any other natural process. By denying the self-sufficiency of nature, they look for God (or at least a "designer") in the deficiencies of science. The trouble is that science, given enough time, generally explains even the most baffling things. As a matter of strategy, creationists would be well-advised to avoid telling scientists what they will never be able to figure out. History is against them. In a general way, we really do understand how nature works.

    And evolution forms a critical part of that understanding. Evolution really does explain the very things that its critics say it does not. Claims disputing the antiquity of the earth, the validity of the fossil record, and the sufficiency of evolutionary mechanisms vanish upon close inspection. Even to the most fervent anti-evolutionists, the pattern should be clear - their favorite "gaps" are filling up: the molecular mechanisms of evolution are now well-understood, and the historical record of evolution becomes more compelling with each passing season. This means that science can answer their challenges to evolution in an obvious way. Show the historical record, provide the data, reveal the mechanism, and highlight the convergence of theory and fact.

    There is, however, a deeper problem caused by the opponents of evolution, a problem for religion. Like our priest, they have based their search for God on the premise that nature is not self-sufficient. By such logic, only God can make a species, just as Father Murphy believed only God could make a flower. Both assertions support the existence of God only so long as these assertions are true, but serious problems for religion emerge when they are shown to be false.

    If we accept a lack of scientific explanation as proof for God's existence, simple logic would dictate that we would have to regard a successful scientific explanation as an argument against God. That's why creationist reasoning, ultimately, is much more dangerous to religion than to science. Elliot Meyerowitz's fine work on floral induction suddenly becomes a threat to the divine, even though common sense tells us it should be nothing of the sort. By arguing, as creationists do, that nature cannot be self-sufficient in the formation of new species, the creationists forge a logical link between the limits of natural processes to accomplish biological change and the existence of a designer (God). In other words, they show the proponents of atheism exactly how to disprove the existence of God - show that evolution works, and it's time to tear down the temple. This is an offer that the enemies of religion are all too happy to accept.

    Putting it bluntly, the creationists have sought God in darkness. What we have not found and do not yet understand becomes their best - indeed their only - evidence for the divine. As a Christian, I find the flow of this logic particularly depressing. Not only does it teach us to fear the acquisition of knowledge (which might at any time disprove belief), but it suggests that God dwells only in the shadows of our understanding. I suggest that, if God is real, we should be able to find him somewhere else - in the bright light of human knowledge, spiritual and scientific.

  2. #2
    Wanderer of the Wastes Array DNAspark99's Avatar
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    Ken Miller rules.
    "I dread beyond all else the growth of the petty tyranny of restrictive legislation, the transference of disciplinary authority from the judiciary to the constabulary, the abandonment of every constitutional safeguard of individual liberty."

  3. #3
    Insultant Array cuski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by savagebovine View Post
    Putting it bluntly, the creationists have sought God in darkness. What we have not found and do not yet understand becomes their best - indeed their only - evidence for the divine. As a Christian, I find the flow of this logic particularly depressing. Not only does it teach us to fear the acquisition of knowledge (which might at any time disprove belief), but it suggests that God dwells only in the shadows of our understanding.
    And why exactly is this surprising? In 2 thousand years of religion, nothing's changed - except perhaps the fact that the church no longer denounces scientists as heretics and burns them at the stake.
    • He who dares not offend, cannot be honest.
    • The whole religious complexion of the modern world is due to the absence from Jerusalem of a lunatic asylum.

  4. #4
    The Comedy is in the Back Array Saturnin's Avatar
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    bro, do you even ride in a straight line? #1 asshole
    yawn @ this thread
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  5. #5
    Lee RideFar Array elevation's Avatar
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    I probably would become a scientologist after reading this thread

  6. #6
    Registered User Array redlightklondik's Avatar
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    nice post. certainly not boring to those with half a brain.

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  7. #7
    Moderator Array CHIA's Avatar
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    Stolen from the web:

    Abstinence Makes the Church Grow Fondlers

    Honk If Your Religious Beliefs Make You An unkind person

    Intelligent Design Makes My Monkey Cry

    Too Stupid to Understand Science? Try Religion.

    There's A REASON Why Atheists Don't Fly Planes Into Buildings

    "Worship Me or I Will Torture You Forever. Have a Nice Day."­ God.

    God Doesn't Kill People. People Who Believe in God Kill People.

    If There is No God, Then What Makes the Next Kleenex Pop Up?

    He's Dead.
    It's Been 2,000 years.
    He's Not Coming Back.
    Get OVER It Already!

    All religion is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination, and poetry. Edgar Allen Poe.

    Viva La Evolución!

    Actually, If You Look It Up, The Winter Solstice Is The Reason For The Season

    I Wouldn't Trust Your God Even If He Did Exist

    Cheeses Is Lard. Argue With THAT If You Can.

    People Who Don't Want Their Beliefs Laughed at Shouldn't Have Such Funny Beliefs

    Jesus is Coming? Don't Swallow That.

    Threatening Children With Hell Is FUN!


    Jesus Told Me Republicans SUCK

    God + Whacky Tobacky = Platypus

    God Doesn't Exist. So, I Guess That Means No One Loves You.

    When the Rapture Comes, We'll Get Our Country Back!

    Q. How Do We Know the Holy Ghost Was Catholic?
    A. He Used the Rhythm Method Instead of a Condom.

    You Say "Heretic" Like It Was a BAD Thing

    I Love Christians. They Taste Like Chicken.

    Science: It Works, cookies.

    "Intelligent Design" Helping Stupid People Feel Smart Since 1987

    I Found God Between The Sheets

    I Gave Up Superstitious Mumbo Jumbo For Lent

    My Flying Monkey Can Beat Up Your Guardian Angel

    Every Time You Play With Yourself, God Kills a Kitten

    If God Wanted People to Believe in Him, Then Why Did He Invent Logic?

    Praying Is Politically Correct Schizophrenia

    ALL Americans Are African Americans

    I Forget - Which Day Did God Make All The Fossils?

    I Was An Atheist Until The Hindus Convinced Me That I Was God

    The Spanish Inquisition: The Original Faith-based Initiative

    If we were made in his image, when why aren't humans invisible too?

    JESUS SAVES....You From Thinking For Yourself

    How Can You Disbelieve in Evolution If You Can't Even Define It?

    Q. How Can You Tell That Your God is Man-made?
    A. If He Hates All the Same People You Do.

    Every Time You See a Rainbow, God is Having Gay Sex

    I Went to Public School in Kansas and All I Got Was This Lousy T-shirt and a Poor Understanding of the Scientific Method.

    WWJD = We Won. Jesus Died.

    The Family That Prays Together is Brainwashing the Children

    Oh, Look, Honey Another Pro-lifer For War

    Another Godless Atheist for Peace and World Harmony

    God is Unavailable Right Now. Can I Help You?

    When Lip Service to Some Mysterious Deity Permits Bestiality on
    Wednesday and Absolution on Sundays, Cash Me Out. Frank Sinatra.

    No Gods. No Mullets.

  8. #8
    "Missing a few pieces!' Array Nine-and-a-half's Avatar
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    "God Doesn't Kill People. People Who Believe in God Kill People."

    Probably the second largest cause of death on this dirty rock we call home,
    is in the name of religion.

    These are just damn funny (and pretty much true)

    "Too Stupid to Understand Science? Try Religion."
    "There's A REASON Why Atheists Don't Fly Planes Into Buildings"
    "Worship Me or I Will Torture You Forever. Have a Nice Day."­ God.

    These are the best lines I've seen in a long time! Thanks Chia!

  9. #9
    Registered User Array SpideRider's Avatar
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    Funny stuff. A touch blasphemous, but still funny.
    Cry in the dojo, laugh on the battlefield
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  10. #10
    You like popsicles? Array Hogie's Avatar
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    Yes, irreducible complexity arguments give scientists something to do. Thank you creationists for destroying yourselves.

    The God Delusion. Read it.

  11. #11
    banned user Array adam112's Avatar
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    Good article. It's what believers in science have been saying for years though; glad creationists are catching on. God does not exist in my thermostat.

  12. #12
    Registered User Array manni's Avatar
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    to much time on you hands

  13. #13
    ninja machinist Array Darkcbr's Avatar
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    Great post savage! It's straight out of Ken Miller's book called "Finding Darwin's God." Very good book. If you haven't read it I suggest you do. At least watch his video.

    "To creationists, an acceptance of evolution cannot coexist with belief in a created world. Not only are the creationists wrong, argues a professor of biology who is also a Christian, they deny the possibility of human beings created free to choose right from wrong. Darwin's theories, he says, can actually deepen our belief in a Creator."

  14. #14
    eyehatewinter Array grey ghost's Avatar
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    no more bike...
    I smell another intense religious discussion cooking...

  15. #15
    ninja machinist Array Darkcbr's Avatar
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