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Clutchless shifting - educated opinions only please

5K views 44 replies 21 participants last post by  made Man 
#1 ·
I know there's a few pro mechanics on this forum. I've heard a lot of varied opinions on clutchless shifting (and I'm talking street riding, not race bikes), I'd appreciate a real world answer based on a professional background. FWIW, I did it as a youngster and now I never do it. I'm not riding where every 0.1 seconds count, and I want my bike to last as long as possible.

I know some people have done it for many thousands of km, but what is unclear is if it's truly hard on the transmission or not.

Chime in, I'm curious to hear the REAL truth.
 
#4 ·
#5 ·
I do it from time to time on the upshifts, rolling off the throttle, at the exact right time, where it makes
for an absolute effortless shift, and can see now way it can have any impact whatsoever, as it snicks
into gear without so much as a click. Depends on whether you mean up, down, aggressive riding??

When and if I do, it's usually from 3rd gear up.
 
#6 ·
like a lot of things, if done right it is pretty much harmless.

Done wrong, repeatedly...you are asking for problems...

I have done it recently when my clutch lever failed, got me from Aldergrove to Cloverdale before I had to stop for traffic.
I used to do it extensively due to having a bike with very little clutch left.
it's a good skill to have.
morale of the story, if you do not HAVE to ride like that, why would you want to?
 
#22 ·
The best answer so far...the truth is Mollygrubber it is something that is useless on the street, for the track sure but they usually have ignition cut outs and the such.

If you want to go ahead and try them it's easy...best is from second up. Under acceleration "load" the shifter like you're going to shift, when you hit the desired rpm just back off the throttle just a hair if all is right the gear will just lightly "snick" into place.

Now I say this with a grain of salt because there is always unforeseen circumstances that pop up, traffic, cops, kids in the street and the slightest of hesitations and this maneuver can ruin your transmission.

Bill is correct that it puts undue stress on the gear dogs and their respective receiving holes but it's YOUR transmission.

Oh ya I only recommend upshifts NO downshifts!!

BTW Jaybo is correct it's easier and CHEAPER to replace clutch plates rather than transmission gears.
 
#17 ·
I highly recommend not doing it . If your a racer then there are benefits but for general street riding no real benefit at all. Up shifting is pretty easy to do , never do it on the down shift . It's not the clutch your wearing out any way. Its the 3 or 4 little numbs on the side of your gears slamming into one another. Like to opposing fans being pushed together. Then when such teeth don't engage they pop back bending the weakest link of your bike the Shift fork.

There is way more benefits to using the clutch. The clutch is like having ultimate traction control. If your passenger can feel you shift ..you suck .
 
#18 ·
Ask any racer that's been bashing their gears on a consistant basis for a few years how well the bike shifts compared with the first day they rode it. I think that the potential for damage is minimal, especially if you let off the throttle slightly to unload the gear before shifting but why let a perfectly functional clutch go to waste on a street bike? Even on the track I mostly used the clutch unless I was really close to someone on the straight or pushing for a faster lap. If you do it under heavy acceleration consistently you will eventually damage something. A lot of race bikes have ignition cutouts on a plunger connected to the shifter specifically to help reduce the load on the transmission for clutchless upshifting. I do it occasionally on the streetbike but I can feel the added stress on the drive train and that's trying to be smooth. I'm pretty sure the rest of the engine will die before the transmission and I'd like to keep it that way so usually use the clutch.
 
#20 ·
Clutchless upshifts on the street are good when some car wants to race. From second to third and on you put your left hand on top of your helmet and show whats up. (If you are so inclined and speaking in theory only, never having done this in younger days and not having enjoyed it immensely when stopping at the next light, especially when it is somebody you know who brags about how fast their modded 5.0 Stang is.):angel

It probably could be a training tool to help smooth shifting because without a clutch mistakes in rev range and speed are more apparent. You know your bike a little better but not something to do day to day.
 
#24 ·
If you want to go ahead and try them it's easy...
Hell, I know how to do it, I did it for a couple of decades (up only, though - well... I experimented downshifting clutchless once or twice on an old XR250 in my youth - not a good result). Now I'm all about smooth. Slow learner I guess. I'm finally starting to really finesse the clutch as a potentiometer, not an on/off switch. More plate wear, sure, but clutches are designed to be easy to change, right? :noevil

I was curious how modern transmissions handled the stress, as so many people think it's "no problem" to powershift all the time. I guess not as well as some say.

So thanks for all the responses, it's been illuminating. :thumbup
 
#26 ·
I was curious how modern transmissions handled the stress, as so many people think it's "no problem" to powershift all the time. I guess not as well as some say.
To my thinking clutchless shifting is not power shifting. Clutchless is as described above, load the shifter, back off the throttle and snick, it shifts, then back on the throttle.

Power shifting on the other hand is as Danke describes, ya leave the throttle wide open, clutch in a bit, upshift, dump the clutch.... two very different things.... IMO.
 
#27 ·
All the stunt guys clutch up wheelies all the time . Hardly ever wear out a clutch . My dirtbike I rape that clutch use it as a throttle makes going over impossible obstacles easy . They hardly ever wear out. The biggest thing I see is Sportbikes with worn out clutches usually at the 35,000 km mark. There not warn out from abuse there worn out from acceleration and deceleration .
 
#30 ·
Here's a response I read on another forum, the author is a pretty well respected mechanic in BMW circles FWIW.

Interesting:

The less bang the better regardless of how it is achieved.

People that pull the clutch all the way in, then apply pressure to the shifter almost never manage to match engine speeds on the super light flywheeled fairly sensitive throttled F800GS and many don't even try. This results in bangs that are far more transmission hoseing then people with well developed clutch less skills.

Going from say 4th to 3rd smoothly without the clutch takes throttle manipulating skills I have never seen anyone in possession of. But 3rd to 4th is easy.

I have zero fear of wearing out shift forks on the F800, so am a big fan of preloading. My forks still had machining marks after 11,000 miles of preloading every shift and generally riding like an ass.

My dogs were all perfectly square and showed almost no wear and yet I barely use the clutch. The dogs that did show a little wear were worn, I believe because I use neutral frequently to rest my gimpy wrist. There is no way to get out of neutral without a rock crushing bang. (well, yeah, you could turn the engine off but come on)

I use a combination of always applying significant preload, pulling in the clutch rapidly, but depending on weather I'm going up or down, snapping the throttle closed and back open when going from 1 to 2 to 3....

When going 6 to 5 to 4..... I apply some throttle for a split second as the clutch comes all the way in rapidly and the shifter is firmly actuated, or sometimes I just pull the clutch all the way in and leave it in to a stop. When I do the latter, I shift as the gear synchronizes with the engine at idle, so, like, Im going from 6th to 5th at around 25 MPH.

People who block shift down with the clutch in at speed destroy transmissions.

In any case, my shifts go well when its all very smooth with no bangs.

The bike jerking some is not particularly hard on the transmission, though the chain is not a fan of such. No matter how far in the clutch is, big bangs from the transmission are always bad. The bang when going from neutral to first is the perfect example of how your shifts should not feel.

Make any sense?

Let the insults commence lol

P.S. I saw two F8 transmissions explode at another shop. Both bikes were ridden by very methodical riders, both German ironically.

The shop guys described customers shifting manners as very distinct and that they basically went "time to shift. close throttle completely, pull in clutch completely, wait for engine speed to drop greatly, actuate shifter firmly, let clutch out firmly and complain to service guys that the rear hops every time I shift, apply throttle, yeah, I'm a motorcyclist" lol

Then again, one of the guys complained his motorcycle was defective cause when he would bank shift down to first while still going 60 on an off ramp it would make an odd whine, so no big mystery on that one.
 
#33 · (Edited)
Wet clutch activation allows oil in between friction and metal plates, reducing clutch plate temparature and thus extending clutch life?

Provided of course that excessive clutch slip isn't employed in the process, which would actually overheat the clutch.

Who knows, maybe I am not thinking on the right line...

If you are in 2nd gear, then didn't clutch and shifted all the way up through 6th, you are creating some clutch friction at each of the 4 gear changes... but without the introduction of oil between the plates, to cool it.

The amount of clutch friction should be about equal for both shifts executed properly, but one has the ability to cool the clutch pack, the other does not..

How's that?
 
#36 ·
Nah, I figure it's cause if you fuk up a clutchless shift you introduce a shock to the driveline that is taken up by the clutch, with is worse for it and a proper disengage / engage .....

Who wins the prize Bill?
 
#40 ·
Clutches are constantly under pressure and friction. Pulling the clutch in actually lets new oil splash around cooling the plates. If you get a chance when dirtbiking and your puking fluid pulling the clutch and coast it cools down engine temp quicker. But constant slipping of clutch also heats up motor pretty quick . Its all about friction.


I can always tell a person with no dirt bike experience from doing dual sport training . Sport bike riders hardly ever slip the clutch or use rear brake and have ratchety throttle control off road. Master all 3 of those and your riding style will become smooth as silk .
 
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