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  1. #16
    Original Pirate Material Array TMR's Avatar
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    Heard they're laggy.

    Quote Originally Posted by bacchus40 View Post
    this is the problem.. man i just finally got all the major bits working together, all thats left is the
    DRAG BARS & comfort SOLO SEAT plus a 240mm tire (8.5" wheel widening required)..

    but there's something about a SUPER-CHARGER in a motorcycle. I like touring, its what gets me by the rest of the year.




    ahh yes, my bad there is one with all the marbles. much like most out there, plenty of options..
    the SX line IS the touring line, thats what i mean its all the same bike.

    This may be what i sat on at the bike show. or not, cant remember. i dont need ELX suspension

    Joining the line-up of supercharged sport-touring motorcycles for 2019 is the Ninja H2 SE+. With all the technology of the special edition model plus electronic suspension and a host of other equipment, the H2 SX SE+ is the most advanced H2 SX yet.


    2019
    Ninja H2 SX SE+ (as mentioned above there is a SPECIAL EDITION as well, w/out the + (see below)

    $28,999


    this is the H2 SX

    a quick A to B comparison shows what we already know, everything can be purchased, upgraded on its own.
    Aftermarket gonna love this bike i bet.



    CORRECTION on above.. and ignore the thread derail. this is what i fell for at the Bike Show

    the SE Bagger, on STEROIDS of course


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  3. #17
    Registered User Array bacchus40's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TMR View Post
    Heard they're laggy.
    wouldnt be surprised, but are we talking stock? i'm sure the ECU re-programming will have a word on the matter.

    i say this after having seen one pop a mad little chubby across hwy7 into Mission backroads not long ago.. that thing looked mad
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    Life is too short to own ugly motorcycles.

  4. #18
    Moderator Array CoolDaddyGroove's Avatar
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    So laggy............
    DON'T STUFF THE CAGERS!

  5. #19
    Registered User Array bacchus40's Avatar
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    no offense, but you're going to have to qualify these comments with a little more information, that word leaves a lot of guessing room.

    I wanted to confirm if the Throttle is Fly - By - Wire which is where i would suspect some 0s & 1s may have to do with it..

    i've heard a comment or two but nobody wants to elaborate, which is really annoying..

    specially when you read this.. (stock bike mind you).. Has anybody ridden one with exhaust, re-flash etc?

    Despite the incredible acceleration, the H2 SX maintains the ability to unleash the fury of supercharged hellfire entirely on your own terms. Traction control and power levels are easily accessible while on the move, and throttle response is tight, but accurate. For a ride-by-wire itís incredibly connected, and if any throttle lag exists at all, I couldnít notice it. The added benefit of this setup is that it allows for the Kawasaki quick-shifter system to be installed, which allows for clutchless up and downshifting. It isnít as smooth as some of the other quick-shifters out there when just riding casually, but itís effective on aggressive upshifting under hard acceleration.

    I'm finding the throttle very twitchy and sensitive on the H2 SX SE. Especially in first and second gear. It's almost impossible roll off the throttle and roll on the throttle in first and second without a jolt. My concern is lower speed twisties when we roll off on entry, and roll back on mid corne

    Twitchy is what i hear most regarding the FlyByWire which is exactly what the R1 was straight out of the box.

    but i dont know, cause nobody wants to talk..
    Last edited by bacchus40; 09-06-2019 at 09:06 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Land Roving
    Life is too short to own ugly motorcycles.

  6. #20
    Original Pirate Material Array TMR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bacchus40 View Post
    no offense, but you're going to have to qualify these comments with a little more information, that word leaves a lot of guessing room.

    I wanted to confirm if the Throttle is Fly - By - Wire which is where i would suspect some 0s & 1s may have to do with it..

    i've heard a comment or two but nobody wants to elaborate, which is really annoying..

    specially when you read this.. (stock bike mind you).. Has anybody ridden one with exhaust, re-flash etc?

    Despite the incredible acceleration, the H2 SX maintains the ability to unleash the fury of supercharged hellfire entirely on your own terms. Traction control and power levels are easily accessible while on the move, and throttle response is tight, but accurate. For a ride-by-wire itís incredibly connected, and if any throttle lag exists at all, I couldnít notice it. The added benefit of this setup is that it allows for the Kawasaki quick-shifter system to be installed, which allows for clutchless up and downshifting. It isnít as smooth as some of the other quick-shifters out there when just riding casually, but itís effective on aggressive upshifting under hard acceleration.

    I'm finding the throttle very twitchy and sensitive on the H2 SX SE. Especially in first and second gear. It's almost impossible roll off the throttle and roll on the throttle in first and second without a jolt. My concern is lower speed twisties when we roll off on entry, and roll back on mid corne

    Twitchy is what i hear most regarding the FlyByWire which is exactly what the R1 was straight out of the box.

    but i dont know, cause nobody wants to talk..
    Nah, I'm not referring to the twitchy throttle. I'm talking about the LAG. Spool lag. Direct source. Especially when transitioning on and off CC.

  7. #21
    Moderator Array CHIA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TMR View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by bacchus40 View Post
    no offense, but you're going to have to qualify these comments with a little more information, that word leaves a lot of guessing room.

    I wanted to confirm if the Throttle is Fly - By - Wire which is where i would suspect some 0s & 1s may have to do with it..

    i've heard a comment or two but nobody wants to elaborate, which is really annoying..

    specially when you read this.. (stock bike mind you).. Has anybody ridden one with exhaust, re-flash etc?

    Despite the incredible acceleration, the H2 SX maintains the ability to unleash the fury of supercharged hellfire entirely on your own terms. Traction control and power levels are easily accessible while on the move, and throttle response is tight, but accurate. For a ride-by-wire it’s incredibly connected, and if any throttle lag exists at all, I couldn’t notice it. The added benefit of this setup is that it allows for the Kawasaki quick-shifter system to be installed, which allows for clutchless up and downshifting. It isn’t as smooth as some of the other quick-shifters out there when just riding casually, but it’s effective on aggressive upshifting under hard acceleration.

    I'm finding the throttle very twitchy and sensitive on the H2 SX SE. Especially in first and second gear. It's almost impossible roll off the throttle and roll on the throttle in first and second without a jolt. My concern is lower speed twisties when we roll off on entry, and roll back on mid corne

    Twitchy is what i hear most regarding the FlyByWire which is exactly what the R1 was straight out of the box.

    but i dont know, cause nobody wants to talk.. <img src="https://www.bcsportbikes.com/forum/images/temp/coffee.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Coffee" class="inlineimg" />
    Nah, I'm not referring to the twitchy throttle. I'm talking about the LAG. Spool lag. Direct source. Especially when transitioning on and off CC.

    Yup. The LAG is a known issue with H2SX
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  8. #22
    Registered User Array bacchus40's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TMR View Post
    Nah, I'm not referring to the twitchy throttle. I'm talking about the LAG. Spool lag. Direct source. Especially when transitioning on and off CC.
    thats what i figured, which is why its confusing as the whole sales bit is that there should be none as its not a Turbo.

    I have not ridden one, but when every damn article out there brags about the exact opposite some folks will wonder wtf is going on.

    in terms of transitioninng on / off throttle, is this even with re-flash? all i know is BROCK got 240rwhp out of the stupid thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by CHIA View Post
    Yup. The LAG is a known issue with H2SX
    that would fall directly under WTF category.. why arent the articles mentioning this at all?

    we've gone completely off topic now.. LOL

    to be clear, i have heard of it, but only in passing and no further comments were made.
    Just want to make sure it doesnt die there.

    so this is as much for me as for others who are reading the 'hype' that its always going, the SC that is;

    meaning making some sort of boost even at low RPM, so you'd expect it to just pull.



    this is a typical example of what everybody keeps going on about, page after page.

    Supercharging will give you a much improved low and midrange typically due to it usually being belt drive from the crank but will sacrifice top end because of the parasitic loss at higher rpmís required to drive the blower. Typically a gmc 671 blower takes about 100hp to drive it at 6000rpm. The new blowers like the centrifugal type popular today is much less so.

    Turboís on the other hand will make much more h-power overall but tend to do it at the top of the rpm range, being driven by the exhaust is as close to free power (no drive parasitic loss) as it gets but because it requires the exhaust to spool the scroll/turbo up. It has whatís known as turbo lag (time to spool The turbo up) unless you use a smaller turbo that will then compromise the top end power.
    Last edited by bacchus40; 09-06-2019 at 11:40 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Land Roving
    Life is too short to own ugly motorcycles.

  9. #23
    Original Pirate Material Array TMR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bacchus40 View Post
    thats what i figured, which is why its confusing as the whole sales bit is that there should be none as its not a Turbo.

    I have not ridden one, but when every damn article out there brags about the exact opposite some folks will wonder wtf is going on.

    in terms of transitioninng on / off throttle, is this even with re-flash? all i know is BROCK got 240rwhp out of the stupid thing.



    that would fall directly under WTF category.. why arent the articles mentioning this at all?

    we've gone completely off topic now.. LOL

    to be clear, i have heard of it, but only in passing and no further comments were made.
    Just want to make sure it doesnt die there.

    so this is as much for me as for others who are reading the 'hype' that its always going, the SC that is;

    meaning making some sort of boost even at low RPM, so you'd expect it to just pull.



    this is a typical example of what everybody keeps going on about, page after page.

    Supercharging will give you a much improved low and midrange typically due to it usually being belt drive from the crank but will sacrifice top end because of the parasitic loss at higher rpmís required to drive the blower. Typically a gmc 671 blower takes about 100hp to drive it at 6000rpm. The new blowers like the centrifugal type popular today is much less so.

    Turboís on the other hand will make much more h-power overall but tend to do it at the top of the rpm range, being driven by the exhaust is as close to free power (no drive parasitic loss) as it gets but because it requires the exhaust to spool the scroll/turbo up. It has whatís known as turbo lag (time to spool The turbo up) unless you use a smaller turbo that will then compromise the top end power.
    Ironic as it is for me to broadcast, I think we rely on the opinions of forum junkies and magazine 'testers' too much. Direct observation, I'm disappointed with the lag. Challenging to explain, and the best I can is to make an analogy; the lag is like the chassis response when tire pressures are subtly incorrect on the bike - there is an unsettling feeling until this slight discrepancy is corrected, and this unsettles ones full confidence in riding at pace. Hope that makes sense. I'm sure there will be a fix for this, but given the complexity of fuel injection tuning AND forced induction, do you think it can be tuned out given your experience with ECU tuning? Thanks.

  10. #24
    Registered User Array bacchus40's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TMR View Post
    Ironic as it is for me to broadcast, I think we rely on the opinions of forum junkies and magazine 'testers' too much. Direct observation, I'm disappointed with the lag. Challenging to explain, and the best I can is to make an analogy; the lag is like the chassis response when tire pressures are subtly incorrect on the bike - there is an unsettling feeling until this slight discrepancy is corrected, and this unsettles ones full confidence in riding at pace. Hope that makes sense. I'm sure there will be a fix for this, but given the complexity of fuel injection tuning AND forced induction, do you think it can be tuned out given your experience with ECU tuning? Thanks.
    I agree with you on the 1st point.. with most bikes i'm not really one to test ride b4 buying but then its a little easier to do so on a chopper and an R1. lol

    I do think this bike is one that could suffer from all the forum / magazine review BS.. half of them have no clue what they're riding i'm sure.

    Personally, I figured it would be best to get people 's thoughts on the matter. Can it be fixed? woah, thats a loaded question.

    Here's the thing though, what we have come to learn from the whole ECU reflash era is that OFTEN there are a considerable amount
    of tweaks the manufacturer has done to the ECU in order to arrive at what the bean counters want in terms of safety, emissions,
    noise pollution, etc etc. but these 'mods to the ecu' are all done after the fact literally at the very last minute and if they are
    already at the testing facility and the bike FAILS, from what i've heard is SOMETIMES they have a tuner / programmer on hand
    in order to kinda FORCE it past the test. These changes to the ECU programming are literally NEVER TESTED and they have no
    clue how it will actually affect what the customer finally gets.

    We continue to see very odd behavior resulting from these last minute tweaks and the manufacturer generally says nothing,
    mostly cause they know nothing as is. It always takes an actual expert in the field of tuning modern digital machines in order
    to get the best out of them. They actually analyze each little tweak as they disect the beast.

    it sounds very complex to me, what you're describing but i can understand what you mean.. definitely not what I would want
    and i'll trust your opinion on the matter.. One of the MANY things they adjust on aN ECU Reflash is TIMING and ENGINE BRAKING
    along with a slew of little adjustments to butterfly opening times etc. Its a FLY-BY-WIRE bike which means there will
    be EXTENSIVE adjustments done to all of the above. Is it possible somewhere in all them zeros and ones there will be
    a magical mating of technology advancements and they'll all play well together? I WOULD LIKE TO BELIEVE SO.

    we wont know until BROCK or IVAN' actually chime in on this LAG thing, as its pretty obvious they're keeping their mouths shut at the moment.

    BROCK cant get enough of himself on the latest tune, and he went with www.guhlmotors.com for the reflash.

    i'm betting Guhl will be the man to figure it out, if there is a fix.
    Last edited by bacchus40; 09-10-2019 at 06:24 PM.
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    Life is too short to own ugly motorcycles.

  11. #25
    Moderator Array CoolDaddyGroove's Avatar
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    This is really disappointing to here, it seems to check all the boxes. Why is it that every bike manufacturer seems to come up short with their new models? Your knowledge of ECU tuning is far above my comprehension, so I won't ask for a dumbed down version. I would be curious to follow this thread as you seem to pretty tight with Brock's and Guhl.
    DON'T STUFF THE CAGERS!

  12. #26
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    And no worries about the derail. I kind of started it. And I find this h2 talk/info very interesting. And I got the input I was looking for on my trip which is looking to be postponed now. We are not hardcore enough to go with lots of rain forecast.*

  13. #27
    Registered User Array the bartender's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bacchus40 View Post
    t

    [I]Supercharging will give you a much improved low and midrange typically due to it usually being belt drive from the crank but will sacrifice top end because of the parasitic loss at higher rpmís required to drive the blower.
    You would benefit from posting less random internet and Wikipedia quotes of things you have absolutely no actual experience with. I suspect Frank has recently ridden the H2SX, as I know he's been in test ride mode. But he could confirm his real world experience.

    How a super charger makes power is 100% dependent on the type of charger it is. A centrifugal charger is going to slowly make power increasing in a linear fashion. A charger like a Lysholm will power very efficiently down low, and staying quite flat over the RPM range. There are lots of options out there, and lots of sizes. There are alos a lot of "guys in the know" who dont have a fucking clue what they're talking about. It's true that a supercharger is always going to have more parasitic loss than a turbo (and noise), but with the low boost levels were talking about on a production bike, its not that much at this point.

    Just for the record, I've written technical stories for Turbo Magazine, so I do know a bit on the topic.

  14. #28
    Registered User Array bacchus40's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the bartender View Post
    You would benefit from posting less random internet and Wikipedia quotes of things you have absolutely no actual experience with. I suspect Frank has recently ridden the H2SX, as I know he's been in test ride mode. But he could confirm his real world experience.
    did a quick google search for the topic at hand, clicked on the 3rd or 4th link, cant remember.. COPY / PASTE.

    it was actually intended to be read as a DIRECT quote of what you'd find on some random forum online.. i literally grabbed the 1st one that seemed to
    have some sense of grammar. I meant its a little boring that people constantly post what could be conceived as an odd experience
    when comparing directly to the hype online. I was very much aware of what was being discussed but there are several others
    online who simply search in google. When no further explanations are provided the discussion goes, absolutely. nowhere.

    my buddy knows a hell of a lot more about turbos and superchargers but he has not ridden the H2-SX..

    great! you know a bit on the topic!! obviously the thread is derailed enough, i just figured i'd nodge the conversation into revealing some actual details.

    Thats all!

    Thanks for following up guys!! i hate broken info on random threads. sucks when you're searching for factual, real world experience and nobody talks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Squisher View Post
    And no worries about the derail. I kind of started it. And I find this h2 talk/info very interesting. And I got the input I was looking for on my trip which is looking to be postponed now. We are not hardcore enough to go with lots of rain forecast.*
    oh good! hahaha... yeah i saw your post and figured I had to diffuse a bomb for yah there

    i cant remember who mentioned the lag to me, but there was a brief discussion on visual differences
    between the two SuperChargers (vs the real McCoy that is), so who knows whats really going on.

    very interesting topic indeed.

    Quote Originally Posted by CoolDaddyGroove View Post
    This is really disappointing to here, it seems to check all the boxes. Why is it that every bike manufacturer seems to come up short with their new models? Your knowledge of ECU tuning is far above my comprehension, so I won't ask for a dumbed down version. I would be curious to follow this thread as you seem to pretty tight with Brock's and Guhl.
    doesnt have to be a dumbed down version actually.. all i mean is ZEROs and ONEs when adjusted in
    an attempt to DUMMY down a Motorcycles WILD behaviour do not always result in a bike that is RIDEABLE in the real world.

    To be honest, how i started the devils advocate argument was not very accurate. I would not expect
    a LAG in throttle response from a FLY-BY-WIRE system. The only LAG I figured you were directly
    discussing is a Super Charger lag, which really sucks!

    CHOPPY and wild, eccentric, twitchy and a little too ON-OFF feeling much like a SQUIRT and GO!
    are all words to describe what Fly-By-Wire throttles feel like with oem programming.

    well.. knowing what little we know about ECU re-flashing, improved tuning etc I would suspect
    throwing a SUPER-CHARGER into the mix would complicate things somewhat.

    i'm interested to see where this goes as well, i'd like to see the big guys address the lag in their own language.

    there are few Tuners in the field that should be acknowledged but Ivan's Performance, Brock's,
    Woolich Racing and Guhl are coming up with some pretty amazing stuff.

    below is what BROCK offers for the H2.. i havent done too much diggin' into what he has done on the SX. not in detail anyway.

    Package Contents Include:

    Ninja H2 Stage 2 Brock Flash ECU (Core Exchange Required) {this is because he is working with Guhl, their work is right protected, ecu likely locked}
    Dynojet H2/H2R (15-16) Power Commander V
    Brock's Performance Custom H2 Mapping (pre-installed in PCV): Select from street map for use with pump gas or track map for use with oxygenated race fuel

    The Stage 2 Brock Flash consists of:

    Ninja H2 re-flash disables the following:
    Decel fuel cutoff
    Noise control
    Exhaust servo
    PAIR valve
    O2 sensor
    EVAP
    Increased high RPM limit by 1000 RPM (same as H2R)
    Aggressively modified ignition timing (Click here for more info)
    Elimination of high speed limiter (Speedometer will display MPH readings above the factory limit of 189 MPH/304 KPH)
    User diagnostic reset enabled (click for reset procedure demonstration video)
    Derestricted in all gears
    Throttle-by-wire derestricted
    Fan temperature lowered
    Auto blipper clutchless downshifting
    (Kawasaki Quick Shifter Sensor Purchase Required)

    See 'Product Details' tab for installation information, product videos and additional resources

    Important: The Ninja H2 Stage 2 Brock Flash is specifically designed to run in conjunction with a Dynojet PCV and Brock's Performance custom mapping. Use of this ECU in any other configuration may result in damage to the motorcycle and/or exhaust.

    Important: The Ninja H2 Stage 2 Brock Flash increases the peak RPM limit to the same 14K peak limit as the Ninja H2R (actual 14.5 on tach). Since the H2R has an accelerated maintenance schedule for increased RPM use, Brockís Performance suggests that high revís be utilized under race conditions only.
    Last edited by bacchus40; 09-12-2019 at 10:58 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Land Roving
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  15. #29
    How to ride Array Redhawk's Avatar
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    This thread has already been SUPER-Derailed, so why not add to it?

    Kawasaki is hinting they may have a supercharged Z model in 2020. Wouldn't that be fun.

    https://www.asphaltandrubber.com/rum...harged-z-2020/
    'I ride, therefore I'm not here.'

  16. #30
    Registered User Array bacchus40's Avatar
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    to be honest, i couldnt even remember what the original post was about.. for a second i thought it was CDG's thread..
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    Quote Originally Posted by Land Roving
    Life is too short to own ugly motorcycles.

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