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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi guys sorry this isn't really sport bike related but I thought I would convey this to my fellow riders as there is usually lots of ICBC talk in this forum.

When insuring a car with ICBC there is a rate class you can get if you have been driving a car for 10 years or more. Now in the case of pleasure use instead of 001 it would become 021 and in the case of to-from work it would go from either 002 to 022 or 003 to 023 and so forth. The ongoing problem we're coming across is where people HAVE been driving for over 10 years BUT have had their driver licences suspended a couple or a few times resulting in the fact they have NOT HAD A VALID DL FOR A TOTAL OF 10 YEARS OR MORE, because the dl was suspended for say 6 months total.

We're seeing ICBC deny claims for this on more and more of a regular basis. Please beware and tell friends and family to be carefull, if its a large liability suit this could become absolutely critical. And as you can all imagine if ICBC's giving you a discount you better deserve it or they absolutely have the right to deny the claim.

Just a heads up
 

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Eh Muh Gawd Becky!!
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good to know Sir BoB. my wife is actually coming up on driving for 10 years so we can finaly change our insurances. i've been driving for over 20 years so been waiting patiently for the missus to catch up!!
 

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"...or they absolutely have the right to deny the claim"

I wouldn't assume this. If ICBC tries this on a big/lawyered-up claim they will be going out on a shaky legal limb. The court isn't going to be happy seeing someone loose thier insurance after already being vetted by ICBC. Remember that ICBC controls licensing, so they have ample opportunity to check for this sort of defect (at least with BC drivers). They will have constuctive and actual knowledge of the defect no matter what the individual tells them. The court will look at them as acting in bad faith ... offering sham coverage.

If the court allowed ICBC to get out for this sort of a defect, then ICBC would stop checking altogether and effectively hand out "insurance" with full knowledge that they will never have to pay. This raises all sorts of legal red flags and I cannot see any equity court allowing this unless the individual did something like hack into the ICBC computer and clean up thier driving record ... or perhaps forge a non-bc driving record.

I am sure that ICBC is saying that they have a "right", but without an appelate court decision all they have is an arguement. If anyone is facing a denial of a serious claim, for this or any other reason, they need to get to a good lawyer ASAP.


-Sandworm
 

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Eh Muh Gawd Becky!!
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funny you should mention all of that. not mentioning any names but a member of this board insured their motorcycle and rode it and was involved in an accident and ICBC tried to deny coverage because they didn't have a certain criteria in their licensing allowing a certain coverage and it went through court and the judge said exactly that that you have just stated. ICBC had full knowledge of their driving record but still insured them therefore ICBC had to honour the insurace they had purchased. i know of another certain member on here that had the same occurance through a private insurer and went to court and won under the same rule. it's very dificult though because the agents are only human and go on what a computer screen tells em but ceratin things are so small and miniscule that it would take a miracle to catch em. i insured my car and it said Roadstar then said something like +20 in brackets meaning i was 20 years safe driving but then i insured my motorcycle and it said +9 and it was only my enquiring about waht that was and then checking my other documents that caught it. apparently there was some glitch that had caused it so they corrected it but things like that could bite you later if someone doesn't catch em. my hat's off to the agents cause they end up having to deal with people when things like that happen and it's really nothing that they did.
 

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Nothing, and no one, is perfect.
We should ask BooBoo11 for an informed answer, but I'm fairly certain the insurance agent does *not* have access to your driver's license abstract.

And that's the point of sale when the question is asked, "do you have 10 years driving experience?"

Remember that ICBC controls licensing, so they have ample opportunity to check for this sort of defect (at least with BC drivers).
Sandworm, you are correct. However, let's not confuse the insurance company ICBC, and the ICBC agent. The agent knows things the insurer does not, and the insurer knows things the agent does not.
 

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Eh Muh Gawd Becky!!
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does that mean we can start suing them over declared bike values too?
wouldn't that be loverly?? you declare your bike at $20,000 and your being billed for insurance based on that value so why shouldn't you get that value when something happens to it??
 

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Vindicated
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wouldn't that be loverly?? you declare your bike at $20,000 and your being billed for insurance based on that value so why shouldn't you get that value when something happens to it??
Fraud.

Think about it. I buy a $5000 bike, declare the value at $20,000.. crash it or it gets "stolen", I get $20,000.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Nothing, and no one, is perfect.
We should ask BooBoo11 for an informed answer, but I'm fairly certain the insurance agent does *not* have access to your driver's license abstract.

And that's the point of sale when the question is asked, "do you have 10 years driving experience?"


Sandworm, you are correct. However, let's not confuse the insurance company ICBC, and the ICBC agent. The agent knows things the insurer does not, and the insurer knows things the agent does not.
You correct the onus is on the client we can only explain and inform our clients.
 
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yes, it's fraud, but when they devalue a $12k bike to 10, or 9, based on what they think is market value, who is getting screwed? they've let you pay the premium for 12, but you lose out when you make the claim.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
wouldn't that be loverly?? you declare your bike at $20,000 and your being billed for insurance based on that value so why shouldn't you get that value when something happens to it??
This is one of the benefits of private insurance like Meg/Fitz or beacon. Its AGREED VALUE so if your bike is toasted or stolen, they have to pay that amount. Keep in mind if your a really bad driver like a buddy of mine with a 165% surcharge ICBC still has to insure you because of government statutes or what ever.
 

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Ride Solo
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This is one of the benefits of private insurance like Meg/Fitz or beacon. Its AGREED VALUE so if your bike is toasted or stolen, they have to pay that amount.
I don't remember anyone from MF sitting down with me to AGREE on a value. It's the same system used by ICBC--declare a value, but don't get too carried away.
I've been happy with MF (though I've never had to negotiate on a totalled or stolen bike), but I do know that they don't necessarily pay out the declared value.
 

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Bitey things are niceless
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...I'm fairly certain the insurance agent does *not* have access to your driver's license abstract.
I'm not so certain how true this is either, now it may not be an abstract, but they do have access to every crash you've ever had.

I went in to talk to our insurance agent, also a friend, about why I had a 265% surcharge on my insurance with no accidents in several years and only 1 theft on my record. She went into the computer and printed off a record of everything ICBC had attached to my name, and DL #. Long story short, I saw a Toyota car on the list and never having owned one asked about it. I crashed a car when I was a courier back in high school and their insurance had magically attached it's self to my DL #. ICBC sent me a rebate for their error. I still lost my safe drivers and was placed at base rate. Can't wait to see my insurance cost after my crash last summer.
 

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I'm not so certain how true this is either, now it may not be an abstract, but they do have access to every crash you've ever had.
Agreed. That's "claims," history.
Not the same as your driver's license records, which has a bevy of other interesting information.
My earlier point was the agent does not have access to your driver's license records. The agent does have access to your claim history.
Two separate databases.
Sorry, I might have typed slower than my thinking process, and not made myself clear.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 · (Edited)
I don't remember anyone from MF sitting down with me to AGREE on a value. It's the same system used by ICBC--declare a value, but don't get too carried away.
I've been happy with MF (though I've never had to negotiate on a totalled or stolen bike), but I do know that they don't necessarily pay out the declared value.
If its agreed value they do. Icbc is not agreed value you just have to declare a value and then argue later. And as many people have said and will say again "how is it that ICBC will happily accept your premium $ for declaring a bike at say $12,000 and then when its a write off only give you $10,000 and NOT give your premium back" ? this is an extremely valid question especially considering its a government corporation that is supposed to work on a break even basis?
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
I'm not so certain how true this is either, now it may not be an abstract, but they do have access to every crash you've ever had.

I went in to talk to our insurance agent, also a friend, about why I had a 265% surcharge on my insurance with no accidents in several years and only 1 theft on my record. She went into the computer and printed off a record of everything ICBC had attached to my name, and DL #. Long story short, I saw a Toyota car on the list and never having owned one asked about it. I crashed a car when I was a courier back in high school and their insurance had magically attached it's self to my DL #. ICBC sent me a rebate for their error. I still lost my safe drivers and was placed at base rate. Can't wait to see my insurance cost after my crash last summer.

I don't mean to nit pick but how does one accident drive you from base rate to a 265% surcharge? I'm doing the math and it doesn't quite add up, that would take at least 2 accidents I think?
 

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Ride Solo
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If its agreed value they do. Icbc is not agreed value you just have to declare a value and then argue later. And as many people have said and will say again "how is it that ICBC will happily accept your premium $ for declaring a bike at say $12,000 and then when its a write off only give you $10,000 and NOT give your premium back" ? this is an extremely valid question especially considering its a government corporation that is supposed to work on a break even basis?
Unless things have changed since I renewed my policy last year, Megson (ING) operates like ICBC--if your declared value is higher than what ING decides is a fair market value, they'll offer less than that declared value. See Squire's thread on her experience with ING.

Maybe Beacon does work on agreed value? How does one go about establishing the agreed value with Beacon?
 

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And as many people have said and will say again "how is it that ICBC will happily accept your premium $ for declaring a bike at say $12,000 and then when its a write off only give you $10,000 and NOT give your premium back" ?
BooBoo11, I'm not sure if yours is a rhetorical question or not, however, the answer lies in the "policy," (in BC, known as the Regulations under the Insurance (Motor Vehicle) Act).
Limit of liability
117 (1) Subject to sections 121, 122 and 131, the liability of the corporation for payment of indemnity for loss or damage described in section 116 is limited to the amount by which
(a) the cost of repairing or replacing the vehicle and its equipment or any part of it with material of a similar kind or quality,
(b) the declared value of the vehicle and its equipment, where appropriate, or
(c) the actual cash value of the vehicle and its equipment,
whichever is least,
exceeds the deductible amount set out in the owner's certificate for the vehicle, or each vehicle in a combination of vehicles.

This is not unique to ICBC, this is a fairly standard wording under "declared value," policies in North America.

When you buy a "Declared Value," policy you are voluntarily limiting the maximum amount the insurance company will pay. It's been aptly noted by another poster that fraud is avoided/prevented by using the "whichever is least," clause.

Some people don't buy Own Damage coverage, preferring to assume upon themselves the financial risk of loss. To attempt to narrow down the loss between, say, $1000 difference between the actual cash value, and the maximum amount of the Declared value premiums is unusually finicky. Particularly since the ACV of a vehicle can vary widely, given the market place, the mileage, options and conditions of that particular vehicle.

But what the heck, as an agent, your firm still makes the commission, whether I personally buy too little insurance, or too much!:thumbup
 

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This language is stock in big commercial insurance packages, like for oil rigs and such ... but I think that BC/ICBC is the only jurisdiction that allows an insurer to offer coverage for X and then determine that only 1/2 of X is appropriate AFTER a total loss. I described the total-loss system to a couple of my law profs and they couldn't believe that a north-american jurisdiction would allow this for vehicles. Normal practice is to agree on a total-loss value before setting the coverage price. (Blue/red books etc)

I have seen private plans allowing the insurer to pay out less than the agreed price, but those also force the insurer to retroactively pay back the overcharge in premiums.

-Sandworm
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Unless things have changed since I renewed my policy last year, Megson (ING) operates like ICBC--if your declared value is higher than what ING decides is a fair market value, they'll offer less than that declared value. See Squire's thread on her experience with ING.

Maybe Beacon does work on agreed value? How does one go about establishing the agreed value with Beacon?
This IS all very interesting and I will agree theres lots to be learned here especially for me. Beacon decides what the max declared value on any given bike will be. I have approached them for instance with a Harley (and as we all know once you start throwing $$$ at a harley the numbers shoot up) and they will not say insure the bike for $30,000 but only $20,000 and they want photos & a list of mods with values to go along with that. So if you want more insurance for that particular bike you'll have to go elsewhere. I know with say japanese bikes if you add say $1500 in additional modifications they won't add that full value but maybe 50% as they know that a $200 windshield does not actually boost the bikes value by $200.00. I don't actually know the differences with Meg fitz as I don't sell that insurance.
 
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