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Get to da choppah!
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Discussion Starter #1
I've argued about this enough already, so please restrict replies to the questions I'm asking. Please, don't bother with "stop driving like an ass" or "pay the ticket, you baby" posts, they'll do no good here. Thanks in advance.

I have my court date coming up for my "no signal" ticket. http://www.bcsportbikes.com/forum/showthread.php?t=60705&highlight=ticket+notes

I've called the UBC RCMP 2 times to request a copy of the officer's notes for the violation, and have left messages for the constable both times. He's never gotten back to me. If he fails to provide me with a copy of his notes by the court date, that's grounds to drop the ticket, right?

I need his notes because:

- The views of the approach to the stop sign, and the stop line itself are pretty restricted from where he was. I need to know where he was, and what he saw.
- The motor vehicle act states:
"Signals on turning
170 (1) If traffic may be affected by turning a vehicle, a person must not turn it without giving the appropriate signal under sections 171 and 172.

(2) If a signal of intention to turn right or left is required, a driver must give it continuously for sufficient distance before making the turn to warn traffic."

1: It was an empty intersection with no moving traffic in any of the 3 directions. Thus, I wasn't really required to signal anyway, or did he see traffic that I didn't?
2: I still maintain that I signalled prior to the intersection, the MVA says I don't have to signal during the turn. If the officer based his accusation on my lack of signal after the stop sign (because the view of my approach would have been obstructed), then the ticket is not valid.

In any case, my main question is if I can get the charges dropped if he doesn't give me his notes.

Cheers!
 

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Get to da choppah!
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Discussion Starter #3
Are you sure? I was under the impression it qualified as "evidence", which I would obviously need access to in order to formulate a proper "defence".
 

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banned user
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I may be wrong, but isnt traffic court treated quite differently then criminal court? Or are they the same thing?
 

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Get to da choppah!
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Discussion Starter #5
My buddy's neighbour is an officer, and I'll have to double check with my friend, but I seem to remember a conversation we all had regarding a speeding ticket my friend was disputing and having a hard time getting the officer's notes. I *thought* the officer/neighbour told him if he doesn't get the notes, he can ask to have the charges dropped...

I could be wrong, but I want to know for sure.
 

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If you get his notes it probably won't do anything anyways. The judge is going to ask the cop what happened and then ask you want happened. Notes, or not... its gonna come down to whether you signaled or not.
The judge probably won't throw the case out just because you didn't have the notes.
 

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Get to da choppah!
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Discussion Starter #8
... anyone know the "court's" phone number? Or is it something I can easily look up (I'm @ work right now, and lazy ;))

So, basically: Cop says what happened, I say what happened, judge makes decision?
 

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I Came,I Saw,I Conquered
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You have to file a request for a "discovery" of all information the cop intends to use against you in the court. I belive you have a certain amount of time... two weeks before the trial date to request this discovery of information. Once you receive this info, build your case on it. Don't go off on a tangent about what you THINK you did. Take appart his defence based on his notes if possible to prove reasonable doubt of convition. If the cop refuses to give all evidence against you then you should be able to get off the charge. Just keep a record of the times that you called the cop and a copy of the WRITTEN REQUEST FOR DISCOVERY OF ALL EVIDENCE. If you show up to court after doing this without any copy's of his evidence, then none of what he says is permisible in court... I think thats the way it works.
 

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Get to da choppah!
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Discussion Starter #12
I will also be taking photos of the intersection from possible locations where the officer would have been standing. His notes could help me to have a more accurate idea of where he was.

Side note: He wasn't wearing his reflective vest, and I'm pretty sure that's a fairly hefty fine from the WCB if he got caught ;)
 

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What is the exact infraction?
What does it say on the ticket?
Section (subsection)
Start your defence with as much information regarding the act/section that you violated.
 

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Get to da choppah!
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Discussion Starter #14 (Edited)
Shovelhead said:
What is the exact infraction?
What does it say on the ticket?
Section (subsection)
Start your defence with as much information regarding the act/section that you violated.
Ticket says Failure to signal.
The applicable section would be the one I posted above regarding signals for turning. What I posted is basically as much relevant info as the MVA provides. But, I think it's enough.

The section on turning at intersections makes no mention of signalling. Most relevant note is:
"Turning at intersections
165 (1) If the driver of a vehicle intends to turn it to the right at an intersection, the driver must cause it to approach the intersection and then make the turn as close as practicable to the right hand curb or edge of the roadway."
 

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coco bongo
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cops don't have to wear the vest unless they know that they will be standing in traffic

the yellow jackets that traffic guys wear sometimes are just as good, as are other jackets with reflective material on em
 

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Get to da choppah!
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Discussion Starter #16
hmmm, well he definitely knew he'd be in traffic. Him and another cop were parked at the side pulling people over. He was only wearing the standard dark blue police coat.
Not thay any of that matters, I only mention it because I was told a funny story once:

A "friend of a friend" was driving on the highway and got pulled over by a cop.
Cop: Do you know how fast you were going?
Guy: 85?
Cop: The speed limit is 80, that's a $175 ticket (or whatever stupid amount it is)
Guy: Oh, wow. Well, I work for the WCB (which he did), and you're not wearing your reflective safety vest... that's a $3000 fine.
Cop: ... have a nice day sir

:)
 

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coco bongo
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if he wasn't a traffic member then he wouldn't necessarily be prepared to do traffic. considering ubc is only patrol then he's not traffic

and i bet that threatening the cop is the best way to get out of a ticket, try it next time!
 

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What? I can't hear you...
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Mmm... first off, unofficial requests made through the police detachment for his notes will not stand up in court, as someone mentioned, you need to make a formal request for evidence... the only difference is that it's not DISCOVERY, it's DISCLOSURE you're looking for.

And honestly, that may not be grounds to drop the ticket by itself but you can argue that it affects your ability to prepare for the case and thus your constitutional right to defend yourself. Technically speaking, any consititutional defences should be forwarded along to Supreme COurt, but 9 times out of 10 the JOP throws it out to prevent wasting court time.
 

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Ya, whatever.
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But didn't you use your hand signals?
171 (1) Subject to subsection (2), if a signal is required a driver must give it by means of

(a) his or her hand and arm,

Maybe they did not see that.

I doubt the officer will bother to show for a failure to signal anyway.Hardly a great concern for the saftey of the greater communtiy...but if you keep hastling them the officer may well show up.
 

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Get to da choppah!
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Discussion Starter #20
Sloan said:
But didn't you use your hand signals?
171 (1) Subject to subsection (2), if a signal is required a driver must give it by means of

(a) his or her hand and arm,

Maybe they did not see that.

I doubt the officer will bother to show for a failure to signal anyway.Hardly a great concern for the saftey of the greater communtiy...but if you keep hastling them the officer may well show up.
I thought this confusion might crop up again... I was not riding. He may not show up if it's just my dispute that day, but from what I've heard, they try to schedule all his disputes for the same date. Plus, they get paid to attend, so it's not like it's a downer for him to show.
 
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