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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Yeah, yeah I know what you are thinking. What is this older focker ranting about now?

About helping you NOT run off into the bushes, cat litter, ditch, .................the rhubarb. That's what this is about.

I dragged 4 of you out of the proverbial "rhubarb" last season, and 5 so far this season. Put yourself in an experienced riders shoes just for a moment...........close you eyes, take a deep breath deep and then open them.

Why the fuck would we the experienced want to ride with ANY new rider when we run the risk of watching someone wreck their bike, hurt themselves, or someone else. We have to call the police, ambulance, and possibly you partner or parents. I don't go on rides to do this. We don't post rides and invite newb riders along just so we get to be home at 11pm at night instead of the 5pm because one of us had to wait by your bike while the tow truck shows up while the other followed you in an ambulance to the hospital. Our spouses/partners get all freaked out when we tell them someone binned it on our ride today. The first question they ask is "Was it one of your buddies? Anyone you introduced me to?" When I tell them it was some new rider their response is "Oh good, hope s/he's alright?"

"Oh good?".............what's good about it? Thats' fucking sick man! But from their perspective it is just a faceless rider. Much easier to deal with that then someone they have met. It makes a bad day for everyone. Me calling your parents and telling them you are in the hospital sucks! Having them interogate me about the circumstances and implying I was somehow responsible sucks double.

You need to know that the majority of rides with experienced riders are NEVER posted on this site for that very reason. Rarely is there a crash on these rides, and that's the way they wanna keep it.

You wonder why is it that that when you go on a group ride with a bunch of experienced riders that they come across as aloof, standoffish etc. They seem nice enough when you introduce yourself but they they aren't, like super friendly and don't really make a strong effort to get to know you. Why? Because we don't want to !You scare us. You are a blank face to us. Your name even goes in one ear and out the other. We'll watch your riding style, assess your judgement first, then after a few hours of riding we quetly make a decision in our head "Yup, this one's ok" or "Too foolish, don't really want to get to know, unless they ask for help". Consider the first few hours of a ride an audition.

Harsh you say? You betchya. We don't want to be your "buddy" right from the start of the ride. We need time (saddle time) to get to know you. Riding is supposed to be about having fun and improving your abilities, not worrying about the guy/girl in the hospital you rode with today.

Do you have any idea how many experienced riders, and groups of riders drag newer riders out of the rhubarb? A lot! It's no reflection on the any of the experienced riders, but when you go down we feel like shit!

So what can we the experienced do?
All we can do is keep doing what we are doing. Invite some of these new riders out on rides. Short of grabbing you by the ears and spitting the rules of the road and cornering techniques into your face, we can't make you learn. that's your decision.

What can you do?
Don't push your limits so much.
Check your fucking ego at the door.
Don't join the fast group and try and keep up. It's usually better to follow someone that is just a little better than you.

Listen to what other people have to say. We aren't strokng our egos by sharing what we know.
Just because you can keep up to a faster rider in a corner means SHIT. If the group you are riding with is intended to lead newbs through corners then the experienced rider has turned it down a huge notch for you. They will usually only ride "a little faster" than what you are comfortable with. Riding at you limit is absolute insanity! Even amazing riders on this board don't ride at their limits.

Finally - communicate! Talk to us! Ask us anything except dumbass questions like "how fast have you gone?" or "how do you get the front wheel off the ground?" I remember early on I would sit in Squamish after a spirited ride up and ask questions from teh more experienced like:

"So when hanging off the seat in a corner. Where should my head be? Behind the windscreen or behind my mirror?

"If I have to slow down a little but while I am in the corner, what's the best/safest way?"

"What line the better line through a right hander? A left hander?"

These are smart questions...............

Most importantly tell us how that last series of corners felt. Any wobbles? Too fast? Too slow? Run wide a bit? Maybe ask a more esperienced rider to follow you for a little while and at the next stop give you some pointers on style, choice of lines, etc.

I may not know you, Hell! I may not even like you, but I never ever want to see you bin it and have to drag your ass out of the rhubarb!
 

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'04 R1 - You are mine!
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Good on ya Frank for taking the time to spell it out like that. It should be made into a sticky and people who have something worth hearing to say, should keep it going. You won't save everyone, as some people are not naturally predisposed towards intelligent thought, but it might open a few eyes. If experienced riders don't invite new guys out once in a while, we'll have a huge fleet of Kamikaze's on the road eventually as this is one of the fastest growing sports(?) out there.
Your rant remainds me of a few Vietnam movies where jaded and embittered veterans don't want to make friends with the "fresh meat" because most of them die in their first day out in the bush.

What scares me is that legal aspect of it. I will probably check with a lawyer before I oganize a ride from now on. I don't want to end up liable for something I can't control. Maybe BCSB can set up some sort of legal form that anyone going for an organized ride would have to sign taking full responsabilty for their own actions...It's just an idea. Anyways...Good stuff. You do sound like an old focker but a smart one. Old=experienced!
 

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Resident Banana
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Great read and true enough. I'd have to agree with this. I've got no problems riding with inexperienced riders as long as they ride within their limits.

Thread STUCK!!!

Flo, As noted in the Ride Forum, BCSB does not organize rides. BCSB provides a portal for riders to communicate and excepts no responsiblity for what happens on a ride. Due to legal reasons, we cannot sponsor or support a ride due to liability issues as you mentioned.
 
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As a newbie I agree with what you are saying and cannot blame you for speaking your mind and probably what is on a lot of other experienced riders minds as most of the fatalities as of late are because of lack of experience and people riding beyond there comfort or skill zone. I am new and not afraid to say that I am. I have about 20 years of dirtbike experience on the tracks and 16 years of safe driving experience as well as I took the Action course. I am not new to riding or driving but I am new to STREET RIDING. I think that is one of the biggest problems with the new riders they think that just because they can jump in that riced out whatever it is that their parents bought them and fly down the road at twice the speed limit or watch the real Pros on TV take corners at 160+ that they can do the exact same thing .THEY ARE WRONG. They try and ussually panic in the middle of the corner and get hard on the brakes because they realize that they fucked up and they end up in the rhubarb or oncoming traffic or a pole...DEAD. A couple of things Ive learned in a short while talking with some of the experienced road riders, Riding is not like Driving, YOU ARE NOT ROSSI just because you have the same helmut as he does, and other vehicles on the road will win.

Ride Safe.


PS I dont want you pulling me out of the rhubarb I dont like it.
 

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Well said Frank. Hopefully people will read your post and not take it personally, but instead realize the consequences of their actions when they find themselves 'in too deep over their heads'. Mistakes do happen, and as long as one learns the lesson then you're a better rider for it.

Personally, i've never been a fan of group rides and much prefer to ride on my own or with the same group of riders. Much safer in my opinion.
 

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:) you'll live longer
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With the legal shit, i've read in the province newspaper about a story where a kid went on a snowbaording field trip with his highschool. I believe his friends were good snowboarders, while he was not. They all went on some jump, but when this boy tried the jump, he fell and ended up paralyzed. Now his family is suing for damages. My first thoughts were who are they suing? His firends? The school for lack of supervision? blackcomb?

The idea was that he chose to go beyond his limits on his own, and suffered the consequences, who is responsible? (rhetorical)
 

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Resident Banana
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Lets try to keep this thread and this Forum educational. I've removed the posts which have no useful information to the topic.
 

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Wanderer of the Wastes
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*ahem* : I repeat:

CONTROL IS AN ILLUSION

no one has it as much as they like to think they do, newbie or podium stander alike. NO ONE!
 

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Excellent post Frank.

I may be a ride snob lately and only ride with a small group of people I trust, but I have my reasons, Franks post sums up the majority of my reasons.

I was trying to make Flo's ride and help out with a newbie ride, but couldn't make it.

I ended up watching the Race School at Tradex on Sunday. I was really impressed. With the exception of one dork showboating, it was great to watch and really see riders improve.

If you guys want to ride fast, and learn to ride better, take the ART course, or the race school and take it to the track.

Jim.
 

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builder of bikes
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Go back and read my post in the earl's Cove thread. I told the noobs to go the speed limit in and out to learn the road.

I also wanted to go on this ride but prior arrangements prevented that. I also do not like pulling people out of the bramble. CDG has every right to voice his opinion about newer riders simply as a warning to know your limits and to not waste our time when we take noobs out.

When you lose a friend, you'll see why this is an easy thing to say with no remorse. The pain of losing a bud is not something I'd wish on anyone.

Everyone makes mistakes. That is how humans learn. Learn from this.


"The first step in avoiding a trap is knowing of its existence"
 

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Devil's Advocate
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Turning a sportbike into a lawnmower is a magic trick not reserved entirely by newbies.

Any why would any newbie ride have a fast group to begin with? I've been out on rides so poorly organized that I couldn't tell you which group was supposed to be fast or slow, let alone people I even showed up to ride as opposed to some complete stranger going the opposite direction.

Some newbies are going to need extreme babysitting. They shouldn't be invited out unless thats exactly what they're going to get.
 

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amen....

here in victoria we went through a few weekends where we had 3 or 4 crashes on 1 ride. We called it weeding out the amateurs. People dont know how crappy it is to have a ride ruined because some new kid, couldnt control his throttle or tried to keep up.

I was there, a newb on a cbr 900rr. but i kept it real, was humbled by my friends telling me to take it easy before you hurt someone or worse. Listen to the experienced guys, they are experienced for 1 or more reasons. Most likely reason is that they have been in your very shoes and know what it takes to get there.

I am now one of those experienced riders, but I still have tons to learn. Take everything in stride, we are always there to help.

I dont mind riding with people that are new, just so long as we arent in a group and as long as you follow my rules. If youre in Victoria, look me up, email me before you come, come to a Vroom Crew even. We'll help you out, show you a few roads.

ICE
 

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i agree with most everything that has been said,

yes, it is important to ride with people that you trust, and with roughly the same skill set, i even know a guy who is a excellent rider, but has no "group skills", so years ago i decided to stay away from him

but.. i do think there is a place for new riders to attend experienced group rides, under these conditions "know and discussed in advance" the experienced riders should be aware and conduct themselves in a manor that teaches skills instead of speed, most "new" riders will get into problems went trying to keep up to experienced riders, if the experienced riders are displaying correct technical riding skill with out maximum velocity, new rider can follow along

the experienced riders can teach the new folks a great deal, but would have to slow down / tech up, and have a open dialoge about what is going on

just a thought
 

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Why should the experienced guys have to moderate their riding?? I dont get this.

I am not here to teach anybody how to ride. In fact I have been riding for so long that people should NOT follow my example, it's probably wrong. Bad habits and all.

The message here is don't ride like a dumbfuck and force someone else to pull you out of the weeds.

I only ride with trusted pals or on my own for this very reason. I find that if I have to worry about others I do not have the same enjoyment.

Good luck to all riders, new and old, this summer.

canuck
 

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canuck said:
Why should the experienced guys have to moderate their riding?? I dont get this.
If an experienced rider is leading a newbie ride, they should moderate their riding so that the newbies aren't tempted to ride off into the rhubarb.

Jim.
 

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'04 R1 - You are mine!
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Mr. Murphy said:
Any why would any newbie ride have a fast group to begin with?
I called out quite a few experienced riders because quite a few new riders said they'd show up. I wanted to team up every new rider with an experienced rider so that they could copy their saddle possitone, their entry lines and since exeperinced riders can tone it down if they want to, they would have entered all this technical twisties at safe speeds. Most of the experienced riders did show up but only two(declared) new riders came. So Wolf and I each took one and let the experienced(by their admission) riders ride in front at their own pace. That's why there was a fast group on a newbie ride! ;)
 

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Well said CDG.A lot of newbs have to stop and realize that just because their bike is fast doesnt mean they are.
Bikes are dam fast machines,even the small ones,and if you dont respect them they will hurt you.Guaranteed.
 
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Frank,

Well put. Luckily I haven't been in your shoes and had to pull people out of the rhubarb. I have seen some bad riding in both others and myself, though.

I've found that I like riding in groups for the social aspect, but prefer to ride on my own. I can set my own pace and not worry about other people on the road. It's selfish, I know, but finding a group that you can trust and goes the same speed as you takes time.
 
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I've read everybody's reply here. And as a newbie, I agree with the experienced riders. Thanks for the note! I wouldn't have known what experienced riders think if i hadn't read this. All my friends, bcsb and even action (took it last month) really stress the risk of riding over my limit. That's why i'm gonna take it slow on the streets. thanks for the heads up!
 
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