BC Sport Bikes Forum banner

1 - 20 of 31 Posts

·
Got Crazy?
Joined
·
810 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Here's the story from the province if you haven't already read it;


Matthew Ramsey and Ian Austin, The Province
Published: Friday, March 10, 2006

Shawn Fortin thought he was doing the right thing.

The security guard tackled a thief who had just broken into a car in the 300-block Richards Street in downtown Vancouver, across the road from Harbour Centre, the property Fortin was hired to guard.

Two days later, his employer, Fusion Security Inc., fired the 25-year-old.

"Every employee must conduct themselves in a safe manner," explained Fusion vice-president Harry Stausgaard. By leaving Harbour Centre property and not notifying police of the crime in progress, he violated the company's policies, he said.

"There are public resources on the street to take care of these situations," he said.

The letter security manager Guy La Foy sent to Fortin said it all:

"Not only did you contravene our policies and procedures, and that of the clients, but your actions put both yourself and your co-workers at risk. As such, I have no choice but to terminate your employment," wrote La Foy.

Fortin was flabbergasted. "I expected to get a well-deserved pat on the back from my superiors. Instead, they fired me."

The man Fortin collared last Saturday, Andrew Vandal, 32, is in custody facing charges of theft, mischief and possession of break-and-enter instruments.

"I had the [surveillance] cameras watch him because he just seemed out of place," said Fortin.

The video of the event clearly shows a man alleged to be Vandal with a miniature pry bar trying repeatedly to smash the window of a silver car. The man eventually succeeds and leans into the car.

Fortin grabs the man and a struggle ensues.

"He said, 'I'll stab you, I'll stab you.' I feared for my life," Fortin recalled.

Fortin backs away and the man runs off with Fortin following. Fortin kicks out his legs and the man falls to the ground.

A second guard charges on to the scene, an ambulance arrives a few seconds later, a police car a minute after that. Fortin doesn't get off the prone suspect until a police officer handcuffs him.

Vancouver police Const. Howard Chow said a passing VPD wagon witnessed the incident and called for assistance.

Chow said the public should phone 911 rather than risk harm.

"In every instance like that, we prefer that people phone 911 and watch these people so not to alert them, and give us play by play so we can get into the area and arrest these guys," said Chow.

"It's important that the public realize that if you go out and challenge and try to take matters into your own hands, you may be putting yourself in danger."

I'm not disputing the companies policy at all, I just want peoples opinions on citizens arrest..... would you step in to harms way if you believed you were doing the right thing. Any Police Officers, I'd really like to hear your personal opinion...not the opinion of your department.
 
D

·
Guest
Joined
·
0 Posts
i wonder which guard that was. i'll have to ask the next time i go to the data center. some of the rent a cops there are definately "call and do nothing else" style guards.

it would really suck if it was the guard i am thinking of, because he was the one that got fusion into the harbour centre.
 

·
Got Crazy?
Joined
·
810 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
doug said:
i wonder which guard that was. i'll have to ask the next time i go to the data center. some of the rent a cops there are definately "call and do nothing else" style guards.

it would really suck if it was the guard i am thinking of, because he was the one that got fusion into the harbour centre.
Do you work in security?
 

·
I like traffic cones :S
Joined
·
15,773 Posts
yeah.... call and give them a play by play... so the thieve can get away and then steal something else. Allow CCW and make it a duty to arrest someone if you think that person is doing something. IF they are not, well, nothing will happen to 'em.
 

·
Got Crazy?
Joined
·
810 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
made Man said:
yeah.... call and give them a play by play... so the thieve can get away and then steal something else. Allow CCW and make it a duty to arrest someone if you think that person is doing something. IF they are not, well, nothing will happen to 'em.
Section 494 Criminal Code of Canada

ARREST WITHOUT WARRANT BY ANY PERSON
S. 494 (1) Any one may arrest without warrant
(a) a person whom he finds committing an
an indictable offence; or

(b) a person who, on reasonable grounds, he
believes
(i) has committed a criminal offence, and
(ii) escaping from and freshly pursued by
persons who have lawful authority to
arrest that person.

(2) Any one who is
(a) the owner or a person in lawful possesion
of property, or
(b) a person authorized by the owner or by a
person in lawful possession of property,
may arrest without warrant a person whom he finds committing a criminal offence on or in relation to that property.

(3) Any one other than a peace officer who
arrests a person without warrant shall
forthwith deliver the person to a peace
officer.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,887 Posts
crazycharlie909 said:
Section 494 Criminal Code of Canada

ARREST WITHOUT WARRANT BY ANY PERSON
S. 494 (1) Any one may arrest without warrant
(a) a person whom he finds committing an
an indictable offence; or

(b) a person who, on reasonable grounds, he
believes
(i) has committed a criminal offence, and
(ii) escaping from and freshly pursued by
persons who have lawful authority to
arrest that person.

(2) Any one who is
(a) the owner or a person in lawful possesion
of property, or
(b) a person authorized by the owner or by a
person in lawful possession of property,
may arrest without warrant a person whom he finds committing a criminal offence on or in relation to that property.

(3) Any one other than a peace officer who
arrests a person without warrant shall
forthwith deliver the person to a peace
officer.
That 25 year old guy is a hero. I'd like to see the writen policy for that company...Perhaps it's time to sue...
 
D

·
Guest
Joined
·
0 Posts
crazycharlie909 said:
Do you work in security?
no. i spend enough time there working to know a few of the security staff, and several of the building's employees.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,021 Posts
Security companies are all about making $

The more sercurity guards puts themselves at risk/confront ppl the greater the chance of lawsuits and injuries.
Most companies have a very strict no-chase policy. Injuries or confrontations generally cost $$$$$$$
Thats why they're just supposed to stand there and watch people steal, its not really security. :laughing

If you want to arrest people be a cop.
 

·
I make grown adults cry!
Joined
·
344 Posts
would you step in to harms way if you believed you were doing the right thing.
I don't think anybody, the company included, is disputing that the guy did the right thing in legal terms of stopping the theft.

The problem is that security is not about what he did. Security is about protecting your client's property. He's not supposed to be checking out the street, he's supposed to be watching the client's stuff. You're not paid to protect the world or be a hero, you're paid to protect your client's interests.

Another problem is that we're getting only part of the story. In my experience, "Cowboy antics" quite often don't happen like this once and then never again. For all we know, this guy has been jumping all over people and poking into non-client issues several times, warned about the same and this was the straw that broke the camel's back. Just a cautionary point here: Security companies are routinely massively understaffed. The average security company operates with a staff turnover rate of 100-300% annual. This means that if you get fired by that company, chances are really good that there was literally nothing else they could do. If you've done something stupid to the point that moving you to a different site won't fix the problem, then you've really screwed up.

In terms of the company's problem, you also have to factor in that if they don't take steps to make sure that their staff aren't heading out to "clean up the streets", they can face some pretty steep liability issues. Like WCB. Or if the guy gets dropped on his head.

I think that there are some pretty profound flaws in the security industry in BC. The industry will continue to have problems as long as the government continues to try the same solutions over and over again, none of which work.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
118 Posts
Well said, I have to agree with you on this one. .He was hired to watch the client's stuff. He should have minded his own business.

Maybe the police should have him recruited?

Boydfish said:
The problem is that security is not about what he did. Security is about protecting your client's property. He's not supposed to be checking out the street, he's supposed to be watching the client's stuff. You're not paid to protect the world or be a hero, you're paid to protect your client's interests.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,815 Posts
Crass is right, it isn't "security" it's the appearance of security to appease the conditions of one's insurance policy and get lower premiums. The last thing the company needs is a bunch of employees who think they're cops. The optics are bad, but the company has no option than to make it clear to any other wannabes that their heroics are just not welcome.
 
D

·
Guest
Joined
·
0 Posts
what if the car being broken into was an employee of a tennant? parking in that area is nothing less than a bitch at the best of times. many people that work in the building are there late at nite (like me) and park near the front street entrance so we don't have to park underground, walk a block INSIDE the building to actually gain outside entrance.

security chases bums off the property all day, just to keep the image up. security does regular sweeps of the outside of the building for things like break ins. the place is supposed to be a tourist attraction. i think it is great that security (at least this guy) took a stance.
 

·
Got Crazy?
Joined
·
810 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
doug said:
what if the car being broken into was an employee of a tennant? parking in that area is nothing less than a bitch at the best of times. many people that work in the building are there late at nite (like me) and park near the front street entrance so we don't have to park underground, walk a block INSIDE the building to actually gain outside entrance.

security chases bums off the property all day, just to keep the image up. security does regular sweeps of the outside of the building for things like break ins. the place is supposed to be a tourist attraction. i think it is great that security (at least this guy) took a stance.
This is probably the most realistic statement so far. This is exactly what security is payed to do. I work in the industry, albeit I'm still new, but i've learned enough already that would change a few peoples minds.

The fact of the matter is security guards deal with alot of shit that the police won't even come down for..... like bums and druggies, even theft from auto. They will only come down if you actually witness a crime in progress, or are in immediate danger. By law you have legal rights in both those situations to do something about it, but making any type of physical contact is a last resort.... even for the police, It must be upon reasonable grounds.

What alot of people don't realize is that there is quite a bit of training involved to become a guard.... and alot of people fail, and many who pass quit within the first week.

I haven't come across a break in being committed yet, and I'm definately going to ask my employer what immediate action I should take (besides calling 911) just for my personal job security, but if I were in plain clothes and off duty, I'd probably kick em in the head.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
186 Posts
This reminds me of a news item on the radio few weeks back. Police in Port Moody apprehended a thief two days after he made bail from b&e arrest, for guess b&e again. In the same report they were unsure why the crime rate in that city is up 33%. This article confirms it. Sit and watch and the crime rate will soar. If I'm the contractor for that security company I'll fire them. They are obviously not ready to provide security.
 

·
'04 R1 - You are mine!
Joined
·
1,697 Posts
Why are we constantly encouraged to behave like cowards in this country? And we wonder why the new generations have no moral identity!?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,223 Posts
another words,
"it ain't my job!" - get a cookie
"I've gone extra distance" - get canned

hmm...that's not how MY parents raised me, but whatever.
I'm sure thanks to all the media coverage the guy will get all kinds of job offers.
 

·
Got Crazy?
Joined
·
810 Posts
Discussion Starter #18
Jester666 said:
another words,
"it ain't my job!" - get a cookie
"I've gone extra distance" - get canned

hmm...that's not how MY parents raised me, but whatever.
I'm sure thanks to all the media coverage the guy will get all kinds of job offers.
I agree my parents always raised me to stick up for myself and others....I guess thats why I want to be a Police Officer.

I don't believe he'll get alot of job offers from security though, because he was fired on reasonable grounds... as unfortunate as that is, I believe he did the right thing as well. The companies do have to look out for their best interests though, which really sucks for justice in the long run.

It is the police's job to fight crime, I agree, but its every citizens duty to help as best they can. I'm not saying be a vigilante or a hero, but just to help to the best of your ability, the world would be a better place if we didn't have to all live in fear of being hurt or losing what many of us have worked so hard for.....If it were up to me, thieves would lose a hand...plain and simple, its hard to steal with one or no hands....some countries got it right.
 

·
I like traffic cones :S
Joined
·
15,773 Posts
crazycharlie909 said:
Section 494 Criminal Code of Canada

ARREST WITHOUT WARRANT BY ANY PERSON
S. 494 (1) Any one may arrest without warrant
(a) a person whom he finds committing an
an indictable offence; or

(b) a person who, on reasonable grounds, he
believes
(i) has committed a criminal offence, and
(ii) escaping from and freshly pursued by
persons who have lawful authority to
arrest that person.

(2) Any one who is
(a) the owner or a person in lawful possesion
of property, or
(b) a person authorized by the owner or by a
person in lawful possession of property,
may arrest without warrant a person whom he finds committing a criminal offence on or in relation to that property.

(3) Any one other than a peace officer who
arrests a person without warrant shall
forthwith deliver the person to a peace
officer.
Yeah, but keep the public from doing it safe(r). I'm sure "DROP THIS FUCKIGN KNIFE OR I"LL SHOOT YOU" would work better than "Oh, Mr. Robber, i see you have a knife, would you please kindly put it down so I can try to KO you? "
 

·
100%GOON
Joined
·
1,908 Posts
FloMan said:
Why are we constantly encouraged to behave like cowards in this country? And we wonder why the new generations have no moral identity!?
yup...I was on the way to the bank the other day and happened to see an little old lady slip and fall by a bus stop. I ran over as fast as I could to see if she was hurt or needed some kind of help. as I was about a 1/2 block away it took me a bit of time but I watched cars slow down and look and people continue on there way and some just ingnored her on the ground!!! WTF! By the time I reached her a couple in a truck pulled up on the sidewalk and jumped out to help. It turned out she was just shaken up and we walked her over the the clinic that she was headed to.

Man..whats with people? Quite discouraging and I really feel ashamed of what our society has become. I was actually very upset after this event...It could have been my mom that need help...
 
1 - 20 of 31 Posts
Top