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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Im puzzled by how the tax system works only for the benefit of the man. Has anyone looked into a new car purchase lately? The number of fees and taxes is amazing. We pay income tax, then we have to pay EI. Then theres the GST and PST. Then if you have a vehicle (or worse multiple vehicles) in BC you insure every vehicle separately. Another tax hiding itself as something else. Then theres taxes on fuel. Property taxes and the various fees you must pay to use certain venues (parking meters etc).
Living in Kelowna I look out and wonder where does it all go? Our bridge is a joke. People bitch about the traffic yet the best solution (a raised highway over the existing one) is said to be "an eye sore." Personally seeing all that traffic is an eyesore. I also consider the time, energy and fuel wasted becuase of an incompetitent plan to be a tax. I would love to know how much fuel is wasted causing more tax to be paid to keep the tanks full. Just that money alone should pay for a new bridge for us. You also have the coquihalla toll, wasnt that suppost to be a 5 or 10 year thing?
Honestly all I have to do is look to europe to see how screwed we are. There they have amazing transit systems, both intercity and incity. Many countries PAY FOR education entirely. Here they talk about the freezes theyve made in super expensive ad campaigns but dont mention the cost of books, or other fees. Whats up with all the BS ad campaigns anyways?! If theyre half as good as they claim they were we shouldnt need them preaching it from our living rooms. Why not put the money where their mouths are. We got new stamps! Who cares! No wonder they upped the price, they had to pay for the new ad campaign telling us we needed 1cent stamps to add to our obsolete ones. Does anyone else see some irony here?
Theres also the endless loop of taxes on vehicle sales. I would love to collect on that cash cow.
 

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The Wizard
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Ask Europeans what they pay in income tax. Last time I checked, Europe didn't have pennies falling from heaven
 

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I agree. The problem seems to be that we never do anything to stop them. Its the drop in the ocean effect, whereby, as citizens of this country we cant get ourselves organized enough to march down there and throw out politicians using force. They keep us fragmented by promising us different ideologies, and keeping us fighting against each other over fictional visions of "our" country/province. Once everyone opens their eyes, stops the "in" fighting, maybe we can organize to the point where there is no choice for "them" due to the fact we are physically removing them from office whether they like it or not...(damn what am I talking about...must go graze now.)
 
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Discussion Starter #5
welcome to canada, the pacifist nation.

shut up, drop your pants, bend over, and take it dry like a man.
 

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Not even a little lube?
 

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Wunderbar.
 
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Discussion Starter #9
Focker said:
Ask Europeans what they pay in income tax. Last time I checked, Europe didn't have pennies falling from heaven
Yes but you can see the dollars benefiting them. Their road systems, heathcare, educational systems.... all better than ours. I just like to see some benefit for me and society to having my wallet raped.
 
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Discussion Starter #10
matty67 said:
I just like to see some benefit for me and society to having my wallet raped.
gather the masses and lead the charge.

join your ratepayer's association. be vocal to your mla and your mp. get involved in the process.

talking about it here does nothing.
 

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Not that I disagree, but aren't EU nations a little smaller geographically? Here we are, 3rd largest country on earth with a tiny population. You don't expect the taxes from 30 million to support a crazy interstate network like our 300 million neighbours to the south have, do you?
 
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Discussion Starter #12
Miteorite said:
Not that I disagree, but aren't EU nations a little smaller geographically? Here we are, 3rd largest country on earth with a tiny population. You don't expect the taxes from 30 million to support a crazy interstate network like our 300 million neighbours to the south have, do you?
Yes, however we squabble many of our resources. Canada needs to play hardball. Were suppost to have freetrade. That has the be the biggest farce in history. What blows my mind about the softwood lumber is why the dudes up here dont jack their prices when they sell down south. If the americans bitch because its too cheap and kills their industry fine, so lets jack em up and "complete". Another thing they could do is up the duties on water and power we sell (by sell I mean give) them. Our forests are being devastated by the pine beetle yet we continue to pay the americans to take our lumber. How the hell does that work? The mechanic doesnt pay you to work on your bike, do they?
Some examples of waste...
Fast Ferries
Gun Control
Stripping the Aux. RCMP of their guns
Air India investigation
Sponsorship
Various Ad campaigns (ICBC especially)
Sale of the Toronto Sky Dome

And the list goes on and on.
 
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Discussion Starter #13
how does the sale of skydome to rogers have anything to do with waste?

the government got out of its problems by selling it! when it was built it was the second coming of christ. then they wanted it torn down, and a NEW stadium built.

rogers bought a lump of concrete that is slowly sinking into the backfill called habourfront. i'd say the gov't did well on that deal.

again, if you feel so strongly about the misuse of our tax money, don't gripe, act!
 
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Discussion Starter #15
doug said:
how does the sale of skydome to rogers have anything to do with waste?

the government got out of its problems by selling it! when it was built it was the second coming of christ. then they wanted it torn down, and a NEW stadium built.

rogers bought a lump of concrete that is slowly sinking into the backfill called habourfront. i'd say the gov't did well on that deal.

again, if you feel so strongly about the misuse of our tax money, don't gripe, act!
sold it for 13 million. the real estate and income from the hotel and resturaunts gone.
people dont pay much attention to a 23 yr old, but later in life I do plan on atleast trying to do something about the problems.
 

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I make grown adults cry!
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There are multiple issues at play in "Why the hell taxes go up and nothing more seems to get done", but I'll touch on a few of the larger points.

First, the Canadian government is the least organized fiscal entity on the planet. They literally operate a G8 government on the same financial planning that your average living paychque to paycheque idiot. Worse, they're not the guy who is living with his girlfriend and saving for a down payment, they're that friend who you have to check every night before they go to bed to make sure they haven't passed out face down drunk and are at risk for choking on thier own vomit.

You know when you hear the politicians talk about, for example, fuel taxes being brought in to pay for road improvements or for the GST being brought in to reduce the deficit? There isn't a special fund that those "earmarked taxes" go into, they all get dumped into something called "The General Revenue Fund". Think of this as the Canadian government's chequebook account. Heck, even the EI surplus that people think is just sitting around somewhere waiting to be spent is put in that fund. This is why Jane Stewart and Paul Martin can misplace a billion dollars, then ten years later have the Auditor General throw her hands up in the air and say "I simply can't audit this mess!". It's too complex and it's the living example of the Trudeau folly of centralization.

The reason that the government doesn't "do" specialized funds is accountability. For instance if we set up a fund, using the example of fuel tax for road improvements, then suddenly that fund is buying jets from Bombardier on contract tenders written on restaurant napkins, the auditor on that fund would have a giant red flag to home in on. If it's all through one giant fund, it's easier to justify a government buying luxury VIP jets from a general fund than if the fund is only meant to supply road building infrastructure.

Related to this then comes the budget pie slicing that happens every so often. Instead of getting applied to roads, the fuel tax funds get diverted to the pet project du jour, like golf courses for inmates and sending politicians on travel junkets to study how other politicians are stealing from people in other places.

Now, there comes a problem down the road, so to speak. The politicians have spent all of the money on beer, popcorn and hookers, but we still need roads. So they propose, for example, putting a toll on the Port Mann.

My suggestion for this point is obvious: Create legislated, audited and verified seperate funds for "purpose" taxes. Ditto EI.

The second broad issue is that there is no constitutional upper limit on taxation. If tomorrow, Harper or Campbell and their respective houses opted to raise the personal tax rate to 100%, there is nothing illegal or contrary to any of the Charters, Bills or other documents pertaining to rights. The fact that there isn't an upper limit means that they continue to spend, which means they need to raise more revenue...which means more taxes.

I often laugh at the governments that talk about "The Budget". Budgets imply that there is a finite income which is then spent first according to need, then according to want, if possible. Governments don't do that: They figure out how much they are going to spend and then tax to reach those spending goals.

For this, we need to actually make government income finite. I'd suggest simply a constitutional limitation on personal taxation. You could debate the ratios forever, but what I'd suggest is set the amount at 33%: Of that, the federal government is limited to 15% and the provincial 18%. The provincial governments are further expected to pass 3% down to the municipality/local governments. If Ottawa tries to tax you further than 15%, you go to court and the judge strikes the tax that put you over as unconstitutional. You also make provisions that unused tax room cannot be "grabbed" by the other parts: If BC sets it's tax rate at 12%, the Canadian government cannot then raise thiers to 18%.

Ah hell, you got me ranting!
 

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contradiction incarnate
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I'd certainly be more happy to have a simple income tax percentage to pay.
Nothing more at all of any kind.
Not when buying anything.
Not when using anything.

Nothing more.
 

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slam said:
I'd certainly be more happy to have a simple income tax percentage to pay.
Nothing more at all of any kind.
Not when buying anything.
Not when using anything.

Nothing more.
That's why I moved to Hong Kong :rockon
 

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rain? whats that!
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Look on the bright side, in European countries (with the awesome roads) they have so much income tax that the average doctor makes the same as a garbage man.

I wonder if ppl are p/o'ed?

(yes)

Many of them think Canada and the US are tax paradises.....scary

btw...many big companies are setting up offices in tax havens (bermuda?) and getting around huge tax burdens. Not a bad idea!!
 
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Discussion Starter #20
Boydfish said:
There are multiple issues at play in "Why the hell taxes go up and nothing more seems to get done", but I'll touch on a few of the larger points.

First, the Canadian government is the least organized fiscal entity on the planet. They literally operate a G8 government on the same financial planning that your average living paychque to paycheque idiot. Worse, they're not the guy who is living with his girlfriend and saving for a down payment, they're that friend who you have to check every night before they go to bed to make sure they haven't passed out face down drunk and are at risk for choking on thier own vomit.

You know when you hear the politicians talk about, for example, fuel taxes being brought in to pay for road improvements or for the GST being brought in to reduce the deficit? There isn't a special fund that those "earmarked taxes" go into, they all get dumped into something called "The General Revenue Fund". Think of this as the Canadian government's chequebook account. Heck, even the EI surplus that people think is just sitting around somewhere waiting to be spent is put in that fund. This is why Jane Stewart and Paul Martin can misplace a billion dollars, then ten years later have the Auditor General throw her hands up in the air and say "I simply can't audit this mess!". It's too complex and it's the living example of the Trudeau folly of centralization.

The reason that the government doesn't "do" specialized funds is accountability. For instance if we set up a fund, using the example of fuel tax for road improvements, then suddenly that fund is buying jets from Bombardier on contract tenders written on restaurant napkins, the auditor on that fund would have a giant red flag to home in on. If it's all through one giant fund, it's easier to justify a government buying luxury VIP jets from a general fund than if the fund is only meant to supply road building infrastructure.

Related to this then comes the budget pie slicing that happens every so often. Instead of getting applied to roads, the fuel tax funds get diverted to the pet project du jour, like golf courses for inmates and sending politicians on travel junkets to study how other politicians are stealing from people in other places.

Now, there comes a problem down the road, so to speak. The politicians have spent all of the money on beer, popcorn and hookers, but we still need roads. So they propose, for example, putting a toll on the Port Mann.

My suggestion for this point is obvious: Create legislated, audited and verified seperate funds for "purpose" taxes. Ditto EI.

The second broad issue is that there is no constitutional upper limit on taxation. If tomorrow, Harper or Campbell and their respective houses opted to raise the personal tax rate to 100%, there is nothing illegal or contrary to any of the Charters, Bills or other documents pertaining to rights. The fact that there isn't an upper limit means that they continue to spend, which means they need to raise more revenue...which means more taxes.

I often laugh at the governments that talk about "The Budget". Budgets imply that there is a finite income which is then spent first according to need, then according to want, if possible. Governments don't do that: They figure out how much they are going to spend and then tax to reach those spending goals.

For this, we need to actually make government income finite. I'd suggest simply a constitutional limitation on personal taxation. You could debate the ratios forever, but what I'd suggest is set the amount at 33%: Of that, the federal government is limited to 15% and the provincial 18%. The provincial governments are further expected to pass 3% down to the municipality/local governments. If Ottawa tries to tax you further than 15%, you go to court and the judge strikes the tax that put you over as unconstitutional. You also make provisions that unused tax room cannot be "grabbed" by the other parts: If BC sets it's tax rate at 12%, the Canadian government cannot then raise thiers to 18%.

Ah hell, you got me ranting!
I would have to agree with you. The fact that the government is able to get away with scandals untouched after something such as the sponsorship is truely astounding. They also have to completely overhaul the judicial systems, the senate and the severance packages. Theyre all a joke.
 
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