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Wanderer of the Wastes
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well, hey, you must be a savy investor if you're unwilling to put money where your mouth is -- that's a bad bet any day.

If only your parents had invested in rubber. ;p
 

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backslider
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ner-ne-ner ....
 

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Wanderer of the Wastes
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You ascend the steps towards the great hall, but are shoved back by the guardians of the threshold. They point to a sign at the entrance: "savvy investors only"
 

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Discussion Starter · #25 ·
You ascend the steps towards the great hall, but are shoved back by the guardians of the threshold. They point to a sign at the entrance: "savvy investors only"
No, the thread is about electric motorcycles, not me. Please flush your brain of me if entirely possible.
 

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BCSB Public Relations
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Can you two get a room already? The sexual tension is slowing down my internet connection.
 

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Wanderer of the Wastes
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as much as us petrol-chuggers would like to disparage and strangle a nascent technology before it even gets out of the crib, it seems 'progress and change' are a constant, scientists keep coming up with other ideas, and, well... it seems inevitable now, that sooner or later we'll just have to gaze wistfully at the smog-smeared sunset of the fossil-fuel industry.

The only question is: will we live long enough to see this sort of thing become mandatory?
masks went over so well, I just can't imagine a 'forced' transition to electric alternatives meeting any resistance.

(Electric Puns, shocking)
 

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I was a chemist in a previous incarnation. I don't remember much actual chemistry, but I do know that chemicals bonds contain MANY times the energy of the electrons that orbit their atoms. Viz:

"Stored energy in fuel is considerable: gasoline is the champion at 47.5 MJ/kg and 34.6 MJ/liter; the gasoline in a fully fueled car has the same energy content as a thousand sticks of dynamite. A lithium-ion battery pack has about 0.3 MJ/kg and about 0.4 MJ/liter (Chevy VOLT). Gasoline thus has about 100 times the energy density of a lithium-ion battery. This difference in energy density is partially mitigated by the very high efficiency of an electric motor in converting energy stored in the battery to making the car move: it is typically 60-80 percent efficient. The efficiency of an internal combustion engine in converting the energy stored in gasoline to making the car move is typically 15 percent (EPA 2012). With the ratio about 5, a battery with an energy storage density 1/5 of that of gasoline would have the same range as a gasoline-powered car. We are not even close to this at present. "

Plus rare earth mining and smelting, battery production and disposal, and electricity production itself complicate the picture. Most electric vehicle on the planet are e-bikes and e-scooters in China. Most of them are trash, with limited lifetimes, altho that will improve. Meanwhile, even the most basic modern car will last 20 years. Nobody does ALL the math...

I can well imagine electric cars dominating urban daily transportation within a couple decades, but the need to provide maybe 100,000 , or maybe a quarter million? recharging stations in North America, to provide full convenient accessibility, seems quite daunting. Battery switch-out could eliminate the dreadful waits required for recharges, but that seems unlikely in automobiles ( maybe in bikes).

Anyway, I'm rooting for carbon capture to save the day.

XXOO
 
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lover of twins
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Doser, even though gasoline provides a lot of energy the main problems with ICE's is that they are horribly inefficient and their combustion results in significant pollution. Electric vehicles are dramatically more efficient even though the "fuel" doesn't provide as much energy. Battery technology continues to advance and 500K km's on a battery is pretty reasonable. So while EV's batteries may have high initial cost compared to a single tank of gas, over their lifetime they are far more enviro friendly. And as battery tech continues to improve, which means greater range, the need for a daily full charge for the avg commuter vehicle is disappearing - most people can get enough charge overnight at home to maintain a close to full battery if they want. If people really need long range, hybrids make a great alternative.

Reasonably priced EV's with good range will be here FAR sooner than any sort of carbon capture that is viable on a large scale. Most of us here will be able to drive that EV if we want, but we'll be 6ft under before Carbon Capture becomes a reality.
 
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backslider
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Just(in) wait ... as soon we will see mandatory travel and driving bans across the country, brought down by our well-coiffed and oh-too-breathy national leader.

Except the chosen/connected ones ... they shall continue to enjoy unlimited access to their cars/limos/helicopters/yachts/private jets ...

... and so it shall be.
 
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hey syncro, you make valid points. and the future of transportation seems clearly to involve electric propulsion. my point is, the future is NEVER what you think it's going to be, looking ahead. and the 'downsides' of all this electrical generation, transmission, and storage are going to be far more damaging than we imagine today. for example, mining the necessary elements:


and as demand falls for fossil fuels and rises for 'electrons', I think we'll reach a point at which we look back and think, " remember when gas was expensive and electricity was cheap?" I'm an old guy, so I have no trouble making outrageous predictions that won't be disproven before I die, but if you get my underlying point, NOTHING ever quite works out the way it is expected to. as the old saying goes (often attributed to the great Danish physicist Niels Bohr): "It's difficult to make predictions, especially about the future".
 

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Doser, even though gasoline provides a lot of energy the main problems with ICE's is that they are horribly inefficient and their combustion results in significant pollution.

PS ICEs may be 'horribly inefficient', but that's ONLY from a thermodynamic perspective. since we can never have an infinite input temperature and an output temperature of absolute zero, no 'heat' based engine can ever operate at 100% efficiency. but from another perspective, a gas-powered engine is perhaps five times as 'efficient' as an electric engine, in terms of work performed vs weight required. that's just as valid a measure as is thermal efficiency.
 

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... duplicate
 

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lover of twins
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PS ICEs may be 'horribly inefficient', but that's ONLY from a thermodynamic perspective. since we can never have an infinite input temperature and an output temperature of absolute zero, no 'heat' based engine can ever operate at 100% efficiency. but from another perspective, a gas-powered engine is perhaps five times as 'efficient' as an electric engine, in terms of work performed vs weight required. that's just as valid a measure as is thermal efficiency.
Where are you getting that from? My point of efficiency is from the perspective of converting the stored energy on the vehicle (gas or electricity) into propulsion. EV’s are anywhere from 2.5 up to 5 times as effective in terms of converting than energy into distance traveled. Batteries are recyclable as well, spent gasoline isn’t. Plus add in that EV’s don’t require oil changes, etc. EV’s are far more efficient in terms of total energy usage over a similar driven distance as ICE’s, and the further they drive the better they do. There is simply no comparison. From a total environmental cost standpoint, EV’s are the better choice.
 

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lover of twins
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By the way, while extraction for battery minerals can be improved, on a global scale oil extraction is a shit show. Shell Oil’s record in Africa is absolutely atrocious.
As with all these things, what motivates humans is mostly cost, convenience and the perception of those things.
 
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