BC Sport Bikes Forum banner
21 - 40 of 68 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,269 Posts
"Your last point of momentarily exceeding the speed limit legally? No, no you cannot exceed the speed limit. I agin encourage you not to use this defence either. I will not speculate as to a bunch of “what if’s” of debris, blind spots or tire blowouts, neither will the court."

Clarify this please. One cannot exceed the speed limit to execute a pass legally?

Good conversation guys. Keep it going.
Nope.There is zero allowance in exceeding the speed limit. The sign says ”Maximum” most times. Even if it doesn’t have the ”Maximum “ present, don’t try to use that as a defence.

I have been in court hundreds and hundreds of times over the years and have seen a lot of arguements from the defendant, including the “I was passing” speed excuse. When I hear it coming, I just sit back and watch. Often I feel bad for the defendant as they feel they are being clear but the only thing they are clear about is that they exceeded the posted limit. Then the justice will inform them what Maximum means. It’s a very simple premise - you cannot exceed the posted limit for any reason.

The law does not care about being stuck behind a loaded semi that can manage the speed limit on the flats but labors to hit 60 on a hill. But we do it all the time to avoid the hassle of being stuck back there. “I’ll watch on my radar or laser to see what the passing vehicle does after a clean pass in a legal passing zone. If the driver keeps their foot in it and continues piling on the speed, we are going to talk. If I can determine that they are immediately slowing down to a respectable speed, no worries.“ - in italics is my method. This is not necessarily the method of the officer that stopped you. Telling that officer “Well Sikorsky says ...” is not going to help.

And honestly, it’s a Hail Mary to go to traffic court against an officer from a dedicated traffic section. It’s like me playing any organized sport against practically anyone ...... I have no experience and the other guy is in their happy space with a lot of experience behind them. You can hope the member doesn’t show for whatever reason but otherwise ..... the odds are greatly against you.


Here are some good tips:
Full disclosure: I’ve won against this law firm in the past and the driver still had to pay their $2500 fee.

If you are asking for disclosure from the officer (notes, video) ask several months before your court date. Ask 2 weeks before and the officer will likely ask for and receive an adjournment in order to gather the material and mail it to you. This means another day off for a trip to court and reflects poorly on the person who waited until the last minute.
 
  • Like
Reactions: oldgixxer

·
backslider
Joined
·
11,344 Posts
"Lowest fines in Canada" you say ...

ah well ... it could always possibly be worse, I guess ... look at what the fokkers are doing in the Philippines, with anyone even suspected of being involved in drugs!!

Yet here ... it's legal to have an acre or two of pot plants growing in your back yard. But remember, just a few years ago, possession of a few joints was against the law.

Funny that, how lines get moved back and forth and up and down, and there is always a justification for it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,269 Posts
Yet here ... it's legal to have an acre or two of pot plants growing in your back yard. But remember, just a few years ago, possession of a few joints was against the law.

Funny that, how lines get moved back and forth and up and down, and there is always a justification for it.
A bit of an over exaggeration, but yup, it’s legal nowadays. As the years go on, things change. I’m in favour, makes my job easier. We just treat it the same as alcohol these days, the fines are pretty well the same. Now it’s the public that needs to get re-educates, just like our parents needed the education about drinking and driving.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,443 Posts
Thanks for your insight Sikorsky. Very helpful. I was always a little cloudy on the details.

I must be doing something right. Got a warning a dozen years back in a cage. My last ticket was in the 80s. I had to keep a clean license for work.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
728 Posts
My defence just so you know is I simply was not going that fast. When the officer said what speed I was going I simply replied I had nothing close to that displayed. My bike at that time had stock gearing on it backed up with a receipt from kelowna Yamaha when I had bought it only a few months earlier. He chose not to give me the larger fine or to impound my bike, despite the stern lecture on how unsafe I had been. As I've said already if it goes to court I'll be curious what the method of speed determination was. As there was no hit on the radar and I simply just don't believe that I was going 155 in a 90 on hwy97 between Vernon and kelowna. All the while staying behind my wife on her n300. So a lot of it will come down to what evidence there is?

Also I know you've mentioned no one cares but as well as my 30 years accident free I was easily over a decade ticket free as well as my wife who was in the lead the entire time, we were riding together and she received no ticket despite pulling over as well. I'll be curious how it all plays out. With my driving record obviously I have very little experience with this. There is plenty of information out there to peruse though.

It would seem with a quick Google that you in fact cannot ever exceed the speed limit even if it is nescessary to do so to execute a pass safely. Yet everyone police included are cruising around 10-15km over. So basically we are just all at the mercy or whim of law enforcement at any given time.

If speeding is such a dangerous and costly thing to BC residents that entire units of our police force have to specialize in collecting rev....err I mean educating drivers through fines. Why is our government taking this approach with speeders and not taking the same approach as they would with drug addicts? We are decriminalizing drugs, funding injection sites, needle exchanges, methadone, endless media ads lately to end the 'stigma' attached to addicts. Yet we just continue to fine and collect fines on top of that through icbc from speeders. Because they are so dangerous they must be stopped, but I mean drug addicts hell they're harmless right? They're not stealing our shit, assaulting people, dropping needles all over, overloading our healthcare system and emergency responders. The real question here and the point of this rant is why isn't our government funding race tracks where the people that actually contribute and pay taxes could go and speed to their hearts content in a safe and controlled setting? Thereby removing the deadly threat of speed from the streets. Heh it's late and it took me ten extra minutes to get home from work tonight because I have to limit myself to 10km over errr or I mean the exact speed limit. So it gives me time to think of shit like this.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
728 Posts
I will also add that I am certainly not going to be arguing that I didn't exceed the speed limit whatsoever but simply that I had not exceeded it excessively as in not 40km/HR+over let alone the 65km that was claimed roadside. I'm quite an aware driver/rider which I feel can be substantiated by my driving record which no one apparently cares about but I guess I'll find out about that first hand if it comes to it. That said there is no fucking way I hit 155 which what realistically would be 160+ displayed, everyone knows bike speedos read high and the fz1 is no different. There is just no way I hit that speed there in that situation.

It's my understanding that I cannot request disclosure until a court date is given? So that is what I am waiting on and the day a court date is set I will be requesting disclosure. It's also my understanding that often a agreement to plead guilty to a lesser charge say of under 40 over is negotiated before entering the courtroom anyways? I would be fine and agreeable to that. And if I had been charged with normal speeding I would've just paid it and moved on. Of course if it goes 18 months without a court date set I'll be more fine with it just being tossed out too.

Honestly on the side of the road I was dumbfounded with the assertion that I had sped excessively and then when the whopper of 65km over was dropped I just stuck to my usual script of yes sir, no sir, sorry sir. I would never argue with a officer on the side of the road which is why we are going to do that in court. I had thought at worst I was getting a normal speeding ticket. Never dreamed from how I had been riding again following my wife who didn't even get ticketed whatsoever that a excessive was on the table.
 

·
backslider
Joined
·
11,344 Posts
Canadian motorcycling you-tube producer 'Fortnine' has a great little vid on-line in which he interviews a lawyer that specializes in getting people off of driving infractions, and she (the lawyer) explains in wonderful and understandable detail all the tools and steps you have at your disposal, when challenging a ticket in court - as well as what NOT to do or say.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Squisher

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,443 Posts
I feel your pain regarding junkies Squisher. I'm in Penticton and the place has turned into a sh*t hole over the last 5 years. Change of government, supportive housing, and a prison opening in Oliver causing the change.

The Libs with Jodie Wilson Raybould spearheading the changes decided to go easy on petty criminals, marginalized people, and junkies. It costs a lot of money to incarcerate criminals and they are the real victims apparently.

Cops here can't keep up. Judges are mandated to keep all but the worst out of jail.

I'm not far from supportive housing for the lowlifes. Major shatshow. Another drug haven to be built this year. Unbelievable.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
728 Posts
Canadian motorcycling you-tube producer 'Fortnine' has a great little vid on-line in which he interviews a lawyer that specializes in getting people off of driving infractions, and she (the lawyer) explains in wonderful and understandable detail all the tools and steps you have at your disposal, when challenging a ticket in court - as well as what NOT to do or say.
I have watched that vid awhile back and certainly will again if a court date actually occurs. I pretty much watch all of Ryan's vids, even if it's on something I'm not really interested in. The production quality and wit is to fantastic to pass up on.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
728 Posts
I feel your pain regarding junkies Squisher. I'm in Penticton and the place has turned into a sh*t hole over the last 5 years. Change of government, supportive housing, and a prison opening in Oliver causing the change.

The Libs with Jodie Wilson Raybould spearheading the changes decided to go easy on petty criminals, marginalized people, and junkies. It costs a lot of money to incarcerate criminals and they are the real victims apparently.

Cops here can't keep up. Judges are mandated to keep all but the worst out of jail.

I'm not far from supportive housing for the lowlifes. Major shatshow. Another drug haven to be built this year. Unbelievable.
I know kind of a derail rant. Not that a derail on a dead ass forum overrun by bots is a big deal. But it's the same in Vernon and nearly every other city centre I believe. It's why I live in the country fairly isolated and have large dogs. But don't worry drug addicts it's not your fault, it's a medical condition now isn't it? We must end the stigma I keep hearing. For fucking real? Do drugs and become a lowlife loser who is a anchor on society and guess what there should be a stigma attached to that.

But the bad joke of drug addicts and how we are catering to them with our tax dollars aside. I do believe that the same logic should be applied to speeding. There should be government funded safe speeding sights in basically all municipalities. Race gas empty container exchanges and for the real hard up race prep bikes or automobiles available. This would free up police and judicial resources and actually make a meaningful safety improvement to the streets. Let me know if I should run for office and I'll let you know where to send the money.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,269 Posts
People make The speeding ticket vs. drug addict argument often. I don’t understand how most people can’t have the critical thinking ability to realize there are a lot of activities that require police intervention. Traffic, Bylaws, forestry patrols, First Nation policing, prolific offenders, forensics, offshore work, international secondments, Musical Ride ...... law enforcement is a great career that has a myriad of special sections.

You could have gone to the Detachment the next day and asked for disclosure, you do not need a court date.

There is often some “horse trading” involved outside the courtroom, prior to the start of the session. However if I have ever written an excessive charge, I have never traded it down. If I did, then the offender could say that since he wasn’t charged with excessive, he should be re-imbursed for the tow and impound fees.

So if I’m reading it straight, he wrote you for 41-60 over the limit but did not impound?
 

·
track hack
Joined
·
2,030 Posts
Squisher - I was in your shoes 20 years ago - decided to have my day in court as I legally pulled out to overtake a logging truck that had been throwing debris at me for 15-20 seconds and as soon as the 2 lanes opened up I pulled into the passing lane, passed, then pulled back in - well as already covered - Cop didn't care if I passed for safety reasons or not, he got me doing 118kph in an 80kph zone. I wanted to plead my case in Court so I did.

Officer offered me a lesser plea prior to entering the courtroom, I think it was a $128 fine as opposed to a $173 one.

I politely declined.

Once it was my turn to speak, I gave my story and described the unsafe riding scenario and my decision to safely overtake and then I immediately went back down to doing the limit for 4-5 seconds before I noticed the cop pop out onto the highway 300-400m up the road and start to wave me in.

Lady Justice was gobsmacked, berated me for wasting everyone's time, and then asked the Cop if he would PLEASE increase the fine back up to the $250+ one I was eligible for just for being such a bonehead. Cop declined, asked to keep it at $173. Justice asked how long I needed to pay the fine, I told her "now" - she ushered me out with a scowl.

Moral of the story - be aware that if you go and the Cop shows and has his notes and evidence all ready - you might possibly be looking at an increase, rather than a decrease.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
728 Posts
I see your point. But where does the $250 fine come into play on a under 40over ticket from 20 years ago? Would it not be the judge who has the power to levy a increase in fine?

My dad has been to court a few times for speeding tickets plus I know a few other people who have and despite all the tough talk here about how intimidating, risky, and out of the average joes league it is. I think I'll take my chances.

Yes Sikorsky the fellow gave me the lesser excessive fine and no towing/impound, I rode away. Despite firmly believing I wasn't going that fast I honestly would just have paid and could care less about the three points as I'm already a year in with no other tickets. It's the driver risk premium that icbc has connected to a single excessive ticket which has inspired me to go to court. Otherwise it wouldn't even be worth my time.
 

·
track hack
Joined
·
2,030 Posts
I see your point. But where does the $250 fine come into play on a under 40over ticket from 20 years ago? Would it not be the judge who has the power to levy a increase in fine?
After my speech, the Justice asked the Cop (Crown) what speed I was clocked at, he confirmed it was 118kph, she then asked (paraphrasing) "doesn't that much over come with X amount as the fine and not just $173?) to which he replied that yes it would but that given the circumstances and my cooperation, the Crown used their discretion to set the fine at the $173 mark - she then asked point blank if he would please increase it to the full amount and proceed with the full weight of the law or something to that effect and he quickly replied and said that the Crown was satisfied to stick with the original amount.

So based on my one time in court for speed against a posted sign, I'd say it's the Cop/Crown that has the ability to decide the level of fine, not the Justice (I called her "Judge" and got berated for that too).

Sikorsky would have infinitely more knowledge on this - I'm just offering up my own history so you have all options covered and full knowledge going in.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,269 Posts
Well articulated YL. It can be a complete roll of the dice going to court. I’ve had the justice give me “the look” as well .... I felt like I was back in Grade 4 and at the principal’s office again.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
728 Posts
So that is correct Sikorsky the justice can ask the crown/police officer if they wish to increase the fine? You've experienced that? In your experience you've often seen extra fines added on to people's tickets or would you say that it is uncommon?

Isn't $173 the max a normal speeding ticket used to be? That sounds familiar from maybe 12-15 years ago when I got my last ticket? But police have always had discretion to set a higher fine amount? Wouldn't 38km over be technically the same infraction as 1km over? It's 40km+ that things get more serious(excessive). Even today a normal speeding ticket of under 40km over cannot have a fine written for $250.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,363 Posts
So, what is the facts on passing a very slow car? 90kmhr zone, car doing 65kmhr, legal to pass. Is it true you cannot pass faster than 90kmhr? That seems like a dangerous way to quickly get around someone! Maybe the police should fine slow pokes for NOT using pullovers to let that 1/4 mile of traffic pass them.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
728 Posts
Just easier to cherry pick speeders. We all speed, a marked police vehicle passed me last night going through town a solid 20-25km over the speed limit, no lights on about 12:40am shortly after I was off work. But they are highly trained and we're probably on police business so it's ok. Yet I was 5-10km over the limit and their police business could just have easily become ticketing me if they were in the mood. I don't stress about it but it is just the reality of driving.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
728 Posts
As to your question I always thought there was an allowance to momentarily exceed the speed limit to safely execute a pass but as has been pointed out there is not. It is purely at the officers discretion but 1km over at any time is breaking the law and a offence if a officer chooses it to be. So basically everyone except those who are hindering traffic are driving around unticketed purely through the good graces of enforcement turning a blind eye, until they choose not to.
 
21 - 40 of 68 Posts
Top